ASA pay scales

[~~~^~~~]

Sig:

You are correct, Sir. I based my immediate career expectations on the firm orders for aircraft and the published growth rate that Delta management handed me when I interviewed. I've still got the paperwork.

Unlike most ASA pilots, I left a job that paid me quite well. If I had known scope were coming, I would have selected another airline, or simply remained where I was formerly employed.

Correct, there is a lot of uncertainty in this business - but what happened at ASA was not due to any market upheval. What happened to growth at ASA is a direct result of ALPA's actions.

Would you like a CRJ900 CA slot? If ALPA would work in our best interests maybe we could take advantage of the fact that Delta overlaps 37% of US Air's route structure. The 900 looks alot like a MD90

 

[FlyingSig]

Have you privately e-mailed Flying Sig to see if he will write you a letter of recommendation?

No but would one of you guys consider writing one for me? I'm already typed in the SkySlug.....

And yes, a 100 million demand with 600 million in actual damages is serious to a union with about 70 million in assetts.

Let's say for second that RJDC won its lawsuit. You guys are all on-paper rich now (God bless America). First off, I don't suppose ALPA would appeal would they? That's probaly a given for both sides...

Next... An award that large would bankrupt ALPA. You guys would singlehandedly be responsible for killing the largest advocate for aviation safety in the world.

Delta pilots would more than likely form their own union and with a bankrupted union I'm sure it wouldn't take long to get certified. While this is happening our contract would, per RLA, remain status quo. I'm also sure it wouldn't be very hard to make a photocopy of the contract and get the company to sign off on the exact same agreement they have already agreed to.

So where does that put you? Well, you're a millionare now, so you don't really care about the tens of thousands of pilots you've harmed (not to mention caused financial harm to.... pilots at small carriers like TSA who make less than you do who would also have to pay into assesments to pay you off).


OR

ALPA settles and tells DALPA they have to renegotiate the scope section. DALPA files with the NMB to dump ALPA and again, the contract is status quo. Think it would be hard to get an independent union on property with no scope hanging over our heads?

OR

Delta Air Lines simply tells ALPA, "a contract is a contract"... tough luck.


... but .... you're still not a Delta pilot doing that Delta flying that "prompted you to sue" in the first place. So is this a victory?

As you can imagine the Express pilots get no representation at all. They are now wishing that they had a separate MEC.

Just curious where you got this idea? CoEx has 6 votes (IAH, EWR, & CLE) while mainline has 8 (add GUM). CoEx has 2000 pilots, Mainline has 5000. The Sec/Tres on the MEC is former CoEx, the Chairman got elected DUE to CoEx votes.... seems like more than adequate representation to me.

Did you work for the media in a past life? You're awlfully good at typing your opinion and playing it off as fact.....

This letter explained that the ASA MEC could only negotiate with ASA management. It further explained that in the union's view ASA was not Delta.

Again that media background shines through with that play on words...so lets decipher: (disclaimer: I never read "the letter")

The ASA MEC is getting ready to negotiate a new contract. They will do so with ASA management. Because ASA management has no money, they are the agent to DCI....but DCI has no money either, as they are the agent to Delta Air Lines, Inc. Thus, when you gain any ground in the negotiating process you are in turn, actually negotiating with Delta. Nobody has ever stopped you from doing so.

Their MEC Chairman, Will Burguey told Bob Arnold that "if (Delta) were to staple the ASA pilots, where would the military pilots go? You could not expect them to fly a Brazillia."

You keep saying this, and before I asked you to point out where you got this other than crew room rumor. You have now put those words in quotes so could you please point me to the written documents that say this? I know...they don't exist. Again, seems to me to be more of your small airplane/real job complex that comes out every now and then.

That is the reason why I am so determined to protect my job and career expectations.

If you had been hired in the late 80s early 90s at ASA what would your career expectations be? How about if you were hired today (knowing the scope clause was already in effect)? Career expectations rise and fall with the economy.

Even if you got on at the hight of the late 90s boom, just what were your expectations taking a job at ASA? I curious if they were realistic?

If it will make you feel better, and give me some credibility in your eyes, I will start a whole thread dedicated to Delta pilot jokes. Something tells me that a guy like FlyingSig would laugh and not take it personally. Would that help???

Bring it on...

 

[FlyingSig]

I based my immediate career expectations on the firm orders for aircraft and the published growth rate that Delta management handed me when I interviewed. I've still got the paperwork.

When I got hired at CoEx, they were to be an all jet fleet by 2002. It was right there on the paperwork. Things change. Delta had 150 firm orders for MD-90's but along came the Gulf War... Things change. (But I never felt the need to sue anyone)

Unlike most ASA pilots, I left a job that paid me quite well.

I did the same thing when I quit CoEx and started over at DAL... But I knew what the published pay scales (on C'96) and based on being in the lowest position for a long time it was still acceptable to me.... so what's your point. You make a career decision. Good for you.

If I had known scope were coming, I would have selected another airline, or simply remained where I was formerly employed.

From what I have gathered on this board you are not yet a captain? Based on ASA upgrade times over the past few years I take it you have probally been over there 2-3 years? If you didn't know about scope then you were living under a rock. But that sure does sound like a good answer for the plaintiff in a lawsuit.

Correct, there is a lot of uncertainty in this business - but what happened at ASA was not due to any market upheval.

I disagree.
ASA was bought by a large corporation that was also in the business of owning and working with other airlines of similar size. ASA's block hours are now distributed by this corporation thoughout its network. This corporation decides where ASA flys, how many airplanes they get, and even where the pilot bases will be. ALPA doesn't get a say in this. It is done as the market dictates. Sounds like market upheval to me (esp.. the SkyWest in DFW part...if that's not market upheval what is?)

 

[~~~^~~~]

I disagree.
ASA was bought by a large corporation that was also in the business of owning and working with other airlines of similar size. ASA's block hours are now distributed by this corporation thoughout its network. This corporation decides where ASA flys, how many airplanes they get, and even where the pilot bases will be. ALPA doesn't get a say in this.

I call Bull-effluvia! ALPA negotiated the scope restriction. This is not market driven, it is an arbitrary cap set by ALPA's negotiating team.

Since this contract with my employer clearly affects my pay and working conditions I had the right to vote on it under ALPA's Constitution and Bylaws. ALPA denied me that vote, or any representation in the negotiations.

There was no block hour restriction when I hired in. When I hired in Delta's scope of ASA was 105 seats and less with no limits on jets 70 seats and less.

The Delta pilots had decided they did not want to fly small jets (they still don't) so they used the creation of alter ego airlines as a give away to obtain higher pay rates and better working conditions for the big jet pilots.

When the Delta pilots abandoned flying of aircraft which they felt were undesireable, ASA grew into that market. Now all of a sudden they want to reclaim what they negotiated away for higher wages years ago. DALPA sold flying of small jets for money - taking by force equates to theft!

Also - the large corporation that bought us thoroughly integrated our operations. The only differences that exist are there for the purposes of using one labor group to undermine and fight against the other labor groups.

At Delta you have Folker 27 pilots from Northeast and ATR pilots from Ransome (Pan Am Express) who were bought and merged into the Delta seniority list. Fifteen years ago DALPA would have insisted that the Comair and ASA pilots be stapled because ALPA had the memory of Continental and United's alter ego labor forces that broke the union apart.

This corporation decides where ASA flys, how many airplanes they get,

Yes and Delta decided to place the largest RJ order in history for almost 500 aircraft - ALPA realized that before long the regional pilots at COEX, ASA, and Comair would soon outnumber the mainline guys and ALPA declared war on RJ pilots. Scope is intended to be RJ pilot birth control and it has been very effective at limiting the growth in the numbers of RJ pilots.

 

[FlyingSig]

I knew you couldn't get through a whole post without using the words alter ego

Delta decided to place the largest RJ order in history for almost 500 aircraft

Again, if that's the "growth" what you based your decision to come to ASA on, then you didn't really do your homework on the aviation indusy. Let's look at some facts though...

Go to Delta.com and look at the annual report.

At the end of 2000, Delta owned 23 CRJ's and Leased 124 airplanes.

At the same time, they had (This includes the deliveries taken in 2001) 144 firm orders for CRJ's (100/200/700). That's a total of 268 airplanes.

remember, you said "I based my immediate career expectations on the firm orders for aircraft and the published growth rate that Delta management handed me when I interviewed."

So you based your decision to come to ASA based on a DCI fleet of 268 aiplanes of which Delta management would decide how many would actually go to ASA.

Delta still has the option to purchase/lease and additional 396 airplanes

So that means, while you made you're decision based on 268 airplanes, the possibility still exists that DCI will more than double in size by 2005. And this is harmful to your career? Bull-effluvia

Oh, you say you won't be able to get those options because of alter ego preditory scope (sorry, I had to use alter ego for your benifit)? Have you read the DALPA contract? Probally not... but.

You can still get every single one of those options. The only restriction Delta has is they have to increase mainline block hours as well. They can order 5000 more CRJ's and give ASA 30 million more block hours. They simply have to add enough airplanes and hours to mainline to keep DCI within block hour restrictions.

But you didn't base coming to ASA on that...only the firm orders, which, you're getting.

....and ATR pilots from Ransome (Pan Am Express) who were bought and merged into the Delta seniority list.

The Ransome folks were Pan Am pilots when they got to Delta. They weren't merged into the Delta list when they were Ransome pilots. They had a flow thru and got Pan Am numbers. But I thought you wanted nothing to do with a flow-thru right?


OK, now with all the replies to my posts you've done you still:

Have not address the incorrect statements you've made about the CAL MEC and CoEx representation....

Have not provided a source to your statement that DAL's MEC chairmen supposedly made...

Have not acknowledged when you were hired at ASA or your seat position as to what your career expectations really are...

Didn't address my scenerio of "what if RJDC won".....

The peaunut gallery is dying to know the answers to these issues...



Have an alter-ego day!

 

[~~~^~~~]

So that means, while you made you're decision based on 268 airplanes, the possibility still exists that DCI will more than double in size by 2005.

No, you know there is no possibility of DCI doubling in size when your contract requires the purchase of three mainline jets for each CRJ over the numerical limits. The mainline jet market is mature and probably constricting - all your contract guaranteed is no growth since there will only be minimal growth amongst the airplanes that feed you passengers. Pan Am tried to run an international airline without feed - look where that got them.

Ransome had a flow thru and got Pan Am numbers

Wrong again - Pan Am extended their list down to capture the Ransome pilots - about the same thing as a staple, but it did result in separate lists for a period of time.

Have not address the incorrect statements you've made about the CAL MEC and CoEx representation....

Refresh my memory - what do you feel has not been addressed? They are separate lists with one MEC and virtually no representation for the COEX pilots. The spin off has been cancelled, for now, but the fact remains that flow throughs are a promise of possible future employment in exchange for concessions now. A flow through would not fix the alter ego problem (which is what I care about). I could give a rats a$$ for getting on the Delta list except for it is the only safety I have from predatory bargaining.

Have not provided a source to your statement that DAL's MEC chairmen supposedly made...

Ask anyone at the Delta codeshare meeting where the "flow through" was allegedly discussed. Any of the ASA MEC members will tell you the same story. Besides was he not a squadron Commander? Why do you think he would care more about a bunch of ALPA ASA pilots compared to his squadron mates? He did not want his military buddies to have to start below a bunch of ASA pilots.

Have not acknowledged when you were hired at ASA or your seat position as to what your career expectations really are...

I thought I did ad nauseum, but again I am a CRJ FO, would like to grow with my airline without artificial scope limitations imposed by my own union

Didn't address my scenerio of "what if RJDC won".....

If the RJDC won then ASA and Comair pilots would enjoy the rights guaranteed in the ALPA Constitution and Bylaws. The rights of membership ratification of contracts that effect our pay and working conditions and the right to negotiate with our employer.

Anything else would be speculation, but I believe DALPA would immediately absorb the Connection pilots before risking contracts at Connection which would make DALPA scope impossible to enforce. For example, what if we negotiated scope of 250 seats and less? Obviously that would be unacceptable to DALPA, they would rather staple us than risk the consequences of us negotiating with Delta outside of their control.

In any event, if the RJDC won, I would be represented by my union and I could feel safe. At the same time the onelist movement would be the renaissance this union needs.

You like to poke fun at my use of alter ego, but don't you agree alter ego is a bad thing?

 

[PastMmo]

Enough is Enough

This thing got started by someone asking the current ASA payscales. Unbelievable. I can't escape it. I come to read about hiring and get a stomach full of RJDC.

Take it somewhere else.

Anybody reading this board has already got a bad taste in their mouth about us ASA pilots.

Suing ALPA? Bad idea. 100 / 600 million dollar suit? Stupid. What's the goal? To punish ALPA... or to sink them?

Contract time coming UP? I think we want them on our side.


Enough said...

 

[Tim47SIP]

I to have to agree with fins AKA Prof. I have been at ASA for almost 2 years and had no previous experience with the unions other than research for a MAS degree. I figured that I would sit back and watch how they worked. Frankly I was a little stunned about the closed shop thing in this day and age (getting fired from your job if you didnt pay union dues), with all of the discrimination suits around these days. So here I am, 2 years later, almost 1500 in union dues, and what do I see? I see a union that very much works with industry to achieve a very safe flying environment which I commend them for. I also see a union that very much takes care of some of its members and not others (only the important ones). I understand that DALPA are the big boys, and that is were the money really comes from. But, I also understand that I pay ALPA dues so that they can represent me and my fellow pilots interests. Because it is a closed shop system, this equal representation is even more important. Frankley, I have not seen equal representation at all between mainline and the regionals. Matter of fact, I havent seen any representation by our union to negotioate scope between a mainline and their wholey owned regional. I am not saying it hasent happened, but if it has, it sure wasent publicised.
What I am getting at is that I know the regionals are in no way equal to the mainlines in size or status, but our union should at least set up some sort of dialoge, heck demand it for their own protection, between the parties involved. The outcome might not come out the way the regionals would hope it to, but at least there was dialog and representation. No one can complain about that. But when the ASA MEC was forbidden into the contract negotiations with DALPA concerning ASA and Comair, I have heartburn with that. This to me seems outright dishonest, although I am sure it is legal. I often wonder why ALPA dosn't set up a seperate Regional Affairs section manned by regional pilots and not mainline pilots. I guess they would be fighting themselves?

The RJDC thing.
I think that IFF is way off on his 90%- way off from what I have been hearing. (I AM NOT DEFENDING THE RJDC, THESE ARE JUST MY OWN OBSERVATIONS)

Althought I personally havent made up my mind about the actions of the RJDC, I am having difficulty trying to figure out an alternative course of action as the DALPA MEC and ALPA refuses to negotiate with us at all. Someone correct me on this one as I am under the impression that the suit is against ALPA and not DALPA. I also have been told (reassured) that no monetary action would take place as I would be very much against it if it made one DALPA member pay a cent. My understanding is that it's main purpose is to get ALPA to represent us all fairly, and to rid preditary scope. I know that there is a section about PID, but it is not for DOH but more for staple. I also know that there is a monetary figure for the suit, but that is to get it into court and not to reap any monetary benifit by the plaintiffs when all said and done. Maybe if the DALPA pilots were informed that the RJDC is not a personnal attack against their carriers and pay, that jumpseating would be a little easier. You know that the only information Delta mainline pilots hear concerning these issues is only what DALPA and ALPA want them to hear.

I am not against ALPA in any way shape or form, I think the organization is a very good one. I also think that sometimes it is OK to provide some means of checks and ballances to keep the system honest. This has happened many times during ALPA's tennure. Their have been numerous law suits filed against ALPA by ALPA members and ALPA has not done very well in it's defense as referenced in previous posts. Remember the Pan Am buy out? ALPA was suid by a Pan Am Capt due to discriminatory practices concerning the Pan Am/Delta pilots lists (or something in that area) and won causing ALPA to sell or mortgage one of it's buildings. That pilot not only continued to fly, he is now one of the main figures at ALPA. Additionally, US Air exp is now in a law suit of it's own concerning the same problems. I dont really think the red headed step child thing is accurate here.

fins, IFF, etc. Concerning the size of ASA. I was just informed in the past few weeks that we are starting are first new hire class this month with 40 people. Training has also stated that this will go on for the unforseeable future. What that really means, I dont know. But with the cap of 1700 or so (as stated by Drew Bedson) that was posted by fins in another thread, the numbers dont jive as we are at over 1500 now. I know that Drew knows what he is talking about, so what is up with the new kids on the block as the number cap Drew is stating occures in 2005 and in just 5 months we will be well over that? Additionally, on other threads, we have discussed numbers of aircraft deliveries and E120 numbers. I still think that the final numbers for the end of 02 are still rellivant with maybe the 70 seater lagging behined. Those numbers were 39 deliveries (11 being 70 seaters) between Nov 01 and Dec 02. With only 28 E-120's left, that will leave us with 19 additional airframes with a crew requirement of 180 additional when it is all said and done. We already have 70+ reserve RJ crews on the property now which means we only will need around 40 additional pilots. The numbers of new hires we are bringing in are way over all of the statements made by management. Where is that crystall ball when you need it? If Delta management knows of mainline guys taking our aircraft in the near future, there surely wouldnt be any hiring going on, I would think. I cant help but think that we are not being told the whole story. Ya Think?
OK flame away!

 

[ifly4food]

The RJDC thing.
I think that IFF is way off on his 90%- way off from what I have been hearing. (I AM NOT DEFENDING THE RJDC, THESE ARE JUST MY OWN OBSERVATIONS)

Let's settle this once and for all. Fins, how many members does the RJDC have from ASA? 10% would be 140. I doubt you have even that many at ASA. I still say 90% of us aren't members ( and therefore supporters).

I still think that the final numbers for the end of 02 are still rellivant with maybe the 70 seater lagging behined. Those numbers were 39 deliveries (11 being 70 seaters) between Nov 01 and Dec 02. With only 28 E-120's left, that will leave us with 19 additional airframes with a crew requirement of 180 additional when it is all said and done. We already have 70+ reserve RJ crews on the property now which means we only will need around 40 additional pilots. The numbers of new hires we are bringing in are way over all of the statements made by management. Where is that crystall ball when you need it? If Delta management knows of mainline guys taking our aircraft in the near future, there surely wouldnt be any hiring going on, I would think. I cant help but think that we are not being told the whole story. Ya Think?

Ahh, but new rumors (after all, we never hear anything official, except official disinformation) are that the Brasilias are going away afret all. Word is that keeping them was a post 9/11 plan to temporarily boost the bottom line. Now that the financing has gone through, the jets are coming and the E120s are leaving. That would negate the need for new pilots unless we were still getting all of the new jets we were promised. If this happens, we will quickly hit the scope limits, maybe even exceed them. I don't see the jet lines or jet upgrades staying as bad as they are.
If I'm right, the whole RJDC plan is useless. Fins says he's mad he can't upgrade, so he supports them. What will be the new reason?

 

[MetroSheriff]

Clarification

the numbers dont jive as we are at over 1500 now

Not to nit-pick, but just a clarification. Per the 01/01/02 Seniority List the number is 1402.

 

[~~~^~~~]

IFF:

The RJDC's list of supporters is confidential, so I really don't know the answer to your question. The only things I have heard is surprise that a few Delta pilots were on direct deposit, but there were no names mentioned. Based on the financial requirements it would appear the number is well in excess of 10% and I have yet to actually meet a pilot who feels like you, or past MMO.

You are very correct that Delta Connection is past the scope limits without the re-set provisions. Unfortunately ALPA has never bothered to share their data with the ASA MEC where Connection is with regard to the limits. The scale back in Delta's international flying threw the RJDC's calculations off after September 11th. The RJDC is working on calculation of the block hour allocation as we speak and will report in the next several weeks. It is long, mind numbing work to go through the schedules.

In any event, Delta not honoring its contract is not a "win" for anybody. The central issue of this litigation is equal and fair representation, which includes the rights of ASA pilots to negotiate and ratify contracts that affect their working conditions.

If ASA goes past 1,700 pilots, that is a pretty clear indication that things have changed on Virginia Aveune and Delta is going to willfully violate their contract.

The Delta contract stipulates that their scope will be re-negotiated when certain financial limits are exceeded. It could be that scope has been re-negotiated - who knows. Of course our MEC has been locked out of these negotiations - so we don't know what is happening with our jobs and working conditions...

Last time scope was negotiated in February of 2000, ASA immediately reacted by stopping hiring. The public announcement of the scope changes was not until almost June, although most of the details were leaked out of the Delta MEC from February to April. So it could be that Delta has re-negotiated section 1 of the Delta contract and the word is not out to the Delta pilots yet (this is pure conjecture on my part)

TIM47:

You are correct, the suit is against ALPA,NOT DALPA, Delta pilots, or Delta. ALPA has the duty to represent Comair pilots, which they breached.

However, before you feel guilty about a Delta pilot paying dues to defend the lawsuit - remember that the Delta MEC's litigation against Comair (Comair flying Delta Express routes) the Pan Am litigation and various sexual harrassment settlements arising from activities of DALPA leaders - all came out of ALPA's funds which we pay. Like you, I don't want to cost the Delta pilots a dime, but at the same time they have cost this union over 20 million, so I am not too sympathetic to their concerns about what defense of RJDC litigation is costing ALPA.

With regard to the Pan Am pilots - ALPA settled the claims brought by RJDC attorney Mike Haber. Another suit was brought on behalf of pilots with different circumstances and ALPA eventually won that second law suit.

The settlement is confidential, but you are correct, it required the mortgage of ALPA's property to pay. You and I help re-pay that settlement with our dues to this day.

 

[~~~^~~~]

IFF:

You suggest that if I upgraded and held a CRJ line then I would not longer support the RJDC. Your assumption is understandable since the harm to my career would be gone.

But - I have written before that if Delta hired me today I would still be an RJDC supporter. Kindly allow me to explain why:

(1) Alter ego airlines and whipsaw harm all pilots, including the Delta pilots.
(2) By imposing artificial limits on aircraft acquisition Delta can not grow as well as they could if they were allowed to operate the right aircraft in the right market. (If scope really works, why not make all Delta flying 777's?)
(3) ALPA is not a union when it separates employee groups. The strength of the union is that it brings all employees together for collective bargaining purposes.

One Level of Safety was an excellent program that raised the stadards of the Regional Airline industry. I believe it is time for One Level of Representation . ALPA "jacks up the house" by building on each contract with improvements that benefit pilots. Having separate alter-ego airlines only serves to lower the standards. Thirty years ago our flying was mainline flying in DC-9-30's. Today you and I make less than pilots did thirty years ago. Why?

If all Delta brand flying was performed by Delta brand pilots, we would have a higher standard. The Delta pilots would no longer have their growth threatened on the bottom end by Connection and on the top end by international code share.

 

[Tim47SIP]

IFF stated:
"Ahh, but new rumors (after all, we never hear anything official, except official disinformation) are that the Brasilias are going away afret all. Word is that keeping them was a post 9/11 plan to temporarily boost the bottom line. Now that the financing has gone through, the jets are coming and the E120s are leaving. That would negate the need for new pilots unless we were still getting all of the new jets we were promised. If this happens, we will quickly hit the scope limits, maybe even exceed them. I don't see the jet lines or jet upgrades staying as bad as they are. "

I agree with most of what you are saying but I am not convinced the E-120's will be gone. Skip just a few weeks ago said the reason that we are now keeping the 28 is because of the new ramp space over at D, additionally, if we are getting rid of all of them, then why new hires now? There is no way the training department can accomidate all of the E-120 guys as well as the new hires and upgrades. Even the last V1 states that we will only loose 11 in the second quarter. With the current hiring, we will be over the 1700 mark by Aug/Sept providing DALPA hasn't negotiated away our aircraft. But who knows? If you dont like what is happening at ASA right now, just wait a minute, things will change.

Metro - Thanks for the correction. I had looked at some training classes a few months ago and I saw seniority numbers in the 1500's. That might be just before the new hire classes were cancelled and what I saw were future position projections. Have they posted the seniority numbers? Were did you get the info? Thanks.

Fins, I wasn't talking about the dues that Delta pilots pay for ALPA to defend themselves because as you stated, we are paying to. What I was refering to was any monitary award to the plaintiffs must not come from Delta pilots through assesements or extra out of pocket expenses. As I have stated earlier, I believe that there is no intent to recoupe any monitary funds except for court costs. But I think that is ALPA's problem as they are the ones that hired 3 more lawyers outside of ALPA at a rediculous cost for this "frivilous law suit" (quoted from ALPA).

 

[~~~^~~~]

As I have stated earlier, I believe that there is no intent to recoupe any monitary funds except for court costs.

Yes, you are right.

Sorry that I did not make it clear that I understood what you were addressing.

ALPA has hinted that they would like to settle with the four Comair pilots who brought the litigation without making any changes to the representational structure or scope problems in our union. The only thing left to offer was money and and position within the ALPA power structure, along with another committee to study the problem. No Thanks!