ASA open contract Issues.. Do you think any of this would work?

[boknowsASA]

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[boknowsASA]

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[boknowsASA]

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[boknowsASA]

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[FmrFreightDog]

You know what, guys and girls... We could work for free and it wouldn't change anything. I, along with many others, think Atkin will eventually shrink ASA out of existence. It has absolutely nothing to do with the pilot contract. The culture of mismanagement runs so deep at this company and has such an horrendous history that the only way to make a Delta Connection carrier operate well out of Atlanta is to completely tear it down and rebuild it. That unfortunately means a 100% turnover in personnel. The wreckage left behind by the current and former ASA management teams has taken over this place like a metasticized cancer. It's gone way too far to be able to simply cut the tumor out and move on. The body is far too infected to survive.

The first step was to start taking 70s. The second step was to start taking 90s. 50 seaters will quickly become things of the past. As they begin to park them, we won't have anything to replace them with. The company will shrink and eventually die. The remaining 50 seaters will move on over to Skywest. As they build up their Atlanta operation, I have no doubt they will succeed where LaBreque, Barnette, Pickett, and Biser failed. Why? Because Skywest actually has an aptitude for airline management. Our current leadership, on the other hand, could most likely run a lemonade stand into the ground inside of 6 months.

Do not let them trick you into thinking you are failing this company by refusing to work under a substandard contract. To the contrary, it it they who have failed us. They have failed us with their arrogance. They have failed us with their ineptitude. Most of all, they have failed us with their inaction. We have been last in baggage handling for God knows how long. What have they changed? Our on time performance in in the toilet and the leadership update has the audacity place the blame on the crews. When Bryan LaBreque applies for his next job and they ask him, "What was the most effective thing you did at your previous place of business?", the best he will be able to say is, "Umm... I bought a kiddie playground to put outside of C-24 so people could better distract their children during their 6 hour delays."

As I said before, it is my firm belief that no matter what we give up on this contract, this company is on borrowed time. With that mindset, I refuse to take a concessionary contract. If someone could prove to me that a concessionary contract would save this company, I would think about it. However I have seen no evidence to that end.

Just listen to the Skywest pilots on this board, guys. THEY MAKE MORE MONEY THAN WE DO!!!! This is not about crew costs. It's about pulling the plug on a terminal patient that has been on life support for far too long.

What can we do about it? Absolutely nothing.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Oh, and Bo.....

Congratulations. You solved the contract problem. 4 very bright contract negotiators who understand the nuances of the Railway Labor Act and Section 6 negotiations inside and out have obviously been sitting with their thumbs up their butts for the past 4 years. They should have gotten on flightinfo.com on day one. We would have had a contract years ago! Brilliant!

Sarcasm aside, it's just not that simple. You can't just throw a proposal up there and expect everyone to say, "Great! Done!" Believe me, those guys don't sit around in meetings and think about ways to shut this place down. They really do have your best interests at heart. ALPA is not trying to screw you, guys. Our MEC and Negotiating Committee don't hang out in cigar bars with Duane Woerth taking envelopes of cash under the table to advance some hidden agenda. We have polling. Pilots respond to the polling. The Wilson Center compiles that data and passes it on the the negotiating committee. The negotiating committee forms it into a proposal and takes it to the company. (Then the company says, "*Ahem* Umm... well... we'll need a caucus, but that's another rant....) In short, what the negotiators are asking for is what the PILOT GROUP is asking for. They aren't injecting their personal agendas. One negotiator isn't sitting there thinking to himself, "Gee, I really would like a 8:1 duty rig. I know polling data doesn't support that, but I think I'm going to go for it." They're asking for what you told them to ask for. Let them do their jobs.

 

[outtahere]

Bo you don't know sh!t! Your proposal is worse than mgmts current. They atleast included trip rigs. No Rigs, no scope, no raise, no retro, no contract!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Bo you don't know sh!t! Your proposal is worse than mgmts current. They atleast included trip rigs. No Rigs, no scope, no raise, no retro, no contract!

Yeah, there's that too.

 

[boknowsASA]

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[boknowsASA]

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[FmrFreightDog]

Why are you so hung up on trip rigs get over it!!! it's not going to happen!

Bo, among other things, you lost me with the words B-scale in the IP section. We don't do that crap anymore. And your thing about a 5 year contract stipulating that negotiations begin at the end of year 4 just shows that you don't understand the process laid out by the Railway Labor Act which, by the way, is not alterable by contract language.

 

[outtahere]

If its not going to happen then why would mgmt include it in there latest proposal? Its kind of like buying a car, once you say $30k or less, you are going above $30k. Mgmt is going to give us not only trip but also duty rigs.

 

[boknowsASA]

Bo you don't know sh!t! Your proposal is worse than mgmts current. They atleast included trip rigs. No Rigs, no scope, no raise, no retro, no contract!

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[outtahere]

Personally I think our current CNC is doing a fantastic job. They will not rollover for the minority (you) into settling for less than what is fair. If Skywest has we damn well better have it plus a little extra.

 

[boknowsASA]

Oh yah they are doing a great job it's only been 4 years

 

[outtahere]

How is it worse does Mang. have retro? Do they have a pay raise across the board? no! so you want a pay cut? Look this is not a proposal just simply a discusion but it appears you two can't do that without attacking everyone!

I am just tired of people like you trying to undermine four years of work so you can upgrade or get larger airplanes, or keep larger airplanes. I want a fair contract for both and so far the company is not anywhere close to fair.

 

[outtahere]

Oh yah they are doing a great job it's only been 4 years

We have been polled and the CNC is asking for what we said we want, we being the majority, and for that I am greatful.

 

[boknowsASA]

I am just tired of people like you trying to undermine four years of work so you can upgrade or get larger airplanes, or keep larger airplanes. I want a fair contract for both and so far the company is not anywhere close to fair.

We can hold out and win the fight but in the end we will loose this war!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

We can hold out and win the fight but in the end we will loose this war!

See my first post doofus. We could work for free. If we're going to lose the war it's already lost, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the pilot contract.

Start working on your resume. I'm working on mine, and the "Objective" section doesn't even mention aviation.

 

[outtahere]

We can hold out and win the fight but in the end we will loose this war!

Then so be it. If that is what we were bought for, to dismantle, then there is nothing we can do about it. But I will not sell out as you have. When they take my badge and ask if I have any last requests I will ask for trip and duty rigs, a pay raise and scope, then I will calmly let the officer walk me out in cuffs after I beat the sh!t out of Lapuke and Tutt.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Oh yah they are doing a great job it's only been 4 years

And management has nothing to do with that. Seriously, have you ever bothered to talk to your negotiating committee. They're pretty accessable. They're in the crew lounge all the time. Nevermind. I retract the question. If you'd bothered to spend any time talking to them then you would know that your proposal would never work for numerous reasons.

Let me go out on a limb here..... While you have no problem bashing the CNC here where you can hide behind a screen name, you never actually discuss any of this stuff face to face with your co-workers. I know the type. I fly with a lot of FOs like you. Let me guess, you've been here *hmm* around 2 years. You came here knowing full well we were in the middle of this. It didn't quite work out the way you expected it to, and now you know so much better than so many guys who have been through this before. Guess what, junior, we know the playbook. We've seen it. Sit back and actually learn something, why don't you?

OH... and another thing.... In less than 20 posts (the first three of which were yours...) this thread has gone from your "Oh so serious-and-levelheaded proposal" to discussing the best way to physically kick our upper managements' asses. That should tell you how seriously we, the pilot group, take your proposal. Nice try though. You should write it up on posterboard. It would make a nice fifth-grade project.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Then so be it. If that is what we were bought for, to dismantle, then there is nothing we can do about it. But I will not sell out as you have. When they take my badge and ask if I have any last requests I will ask for trip and duty rigs, a pay raise and scope, then I will calmly let the officer walk me out in cuffs after I beat the sh!t out of Lapuke and Tutt.

Beautiful! I dunno though... Tutt looks a little wiry. You gotta watch out for those guys. Lapuke, on the other hand.... easy pickings...

 

[outtahere]

Beautiful! I dunno though... Tutt looks a little wiry. You gotta watch out for those guys. Lapuke, on the other hand.... easy pickings...

AHHH Tutts gettin' old, besides he's soft from all those years at Delta.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

AHHH Tutts gettin' old, besides he's soft from all those years at Delta.

True... A good gut punch might bring up the remains of all those years of crew meals.... Anyone would be disabled by the sight of a 25 year old chicken breast with the mysterious orange frosted cake square.......

 

[ASADriver]

I am just tired of people like you trying to undermine four years of work so you can upgrade or get larger airplanes, or keep larger airplanes. I want a fair contract for both and so far the company is not anywhere close to fair.

I'm tired of people like you trying to ruin my job. Allowing our aircraft to go to Skywest will benefit nobody. If you don't like it, please leave!

 

[Tomct]

:angryfireJust Give me the CHANCE and with ONE "Round-House" I will CLEAR OUT the upper floor of mgmnt! Lot of anger here and I would LOVE to do that for everyone here at ASA!!!

 

[ASADriver]

And management has nothing to do with that. Seriously, have you ever bothered to talk to your negotiating committee. They're pretty accessable. They're in the crew lounge all the time. Nevermind. I retract the question. If you'd bothered to spend any time talking to them then you would know that your proposal would never work for numerous reasons.

Let me go out on a limb here..... While you have no problem bashing the CNC here where you can hide behind a screen name, you never actually discuss any of this stuff face to face with your co-workers. I know the type. I fly with a lot of FOs like you. Let me guess, you've been here *hmm* around 2 years. You came here knowing full well we were in the middle of this. It didn't quite work out the way you expected it to, and now you know so much better than so many guys who have been through this before. Guess what, junior, we know the playbook. We've seen it. Sit back and actually learn something, why don't you?

OH... and another thing.... In less than 20 posts (the first three of which were yours...) this thread has gone from your "Oh so serious-and-levelheaded proposal" to discussing the best way to physically kick our upper managements' asses. That should tell you how seriously we, the pilot group, take your proposal. Nice try though. You should write it up on posterboard. It would make a nice fifth-grade project.

I've talked to lots of ALPA people. MEC reps, CNC members, and P2P. The answers and excuses have changed from time to time and rep. to rep. I remember last year being told that we weren't asking for much money, only QOL issues. That was a lie - we are asking for lots of money. I remember P2P people telling me that a YES vote on the strike was crucial because management would give us what we want if we vote yes. They said it wasn't really a strike vote, it was just a message so we could get what we want. That was a lie too. Lies and more lies, while our jobs go to non-union Skywest. Tell me again why I am paying 2% of my pay to "protect my job". Wake up people, ALPA isn't protecting your job, they are just taking your money.

 

[Tomct]

I've talked to lots of ALPA people. MEC reps, CNC members, and P2P. The answers and excuses have changed from time to time and rep. to rep. I remember last year being told that we weren't asking for much money, only QOL issues. That was a lie - we are asking for lots of money. I remember P2P people telling me that a YES vote on the strike was crucial because management would give us what we want if we vote yes. They said it wasn't really a strike vote, it was just a message so we could get what we want. That was a lie too. Lies and more lies, while our jobs go to non-union Skywest. Tell me again why I am paying 2% of my pay to "protect my job". Wake up people, ALPA isn't protecting your job, they are just taking your money.

@ssdriver, get back to work on the top floor at the granite palace! Apparently you don't feel that you are worth very much...and that's fine. Just get back to work on your resume because when JA fires all of your Dumb@sses who lead this company, YOU will need a NEW job!

 

[ASADriver]

@ssdriver, get back to work on the top floor at the granite palace! Apparently you don't feel that you are worth very much...and that's fine. Just get back to work on your resume because when JA fires all of your Dumb@sses who lead this company, YOU will need a NEW job!

I'm just a line pilot Tomct, but I realize that my worth is dependant on the industry around me, and I also am smart enough to realize that I will be worth less if my job is outsourced to Skywest.

 

[Tomct]

I'm just a line pilot Tomct, but I realize that my worth is dependant on the industry around me, and I also am smart enough to realize that I will be worth less if my job is outsourced to Skywest.

:blush:If that is true, then I guess it's a good thing that you have that TYPE....right! By the way, they are going to do whatever suits them, us taking a sub-par contract is NOT going to change anything. Wake Up Brian!!