ASA No Spin Zone

[atrdriver]

atrdriver,


BTW, you do get a raise every year up till 18, with your longevity step.

There are NO longevity steps in managements proposal. YOu have them now, you won't with what management wants you to sign.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

ATR, calm down before you blow a blood vessel or something. If you read what I wrote, it said "What I could live with" not "the company proposed". There needs to be a yearly bump if there is to be a single jet FO pay scale.

 

[ASACAPT]

Why is it OK for an ASA CR7 capt to make $95.68 a year (Company's last proposal) when Chitaco CR7 Capt will make $103.25 in october 2007 at the 18 year longevity. Their payrate for a 20 year longevity is $108.47.

Keep in mind that this agreement according to the company will last for 5 years.....

Why should we not have a duty rig when SkyWest has one.

The list can go on and on...

 

[goahead]

B/C chitaco is a virtual airline, we suck it up for all our wonderful above and below wing employees. Ain't life a motherfuc_er.

 

[79%N1]

CHQ has no one on those high payscales. ASA does. Big difference.

 

[JustaNumber]

I'm not anti union, but I'm quickly becoming anti ASA MEC

Would somebody please tell me why so many people are suddenly anti ASA MEC?

Don't you guys realize the MEC and CNC are nothing more than volunteer pilots, performing at the direction of the pilot group at large? They get their direction from YOU!!! They are constantly taking Wilson polls to gauge EXACTLY what the pilot group wants, and then they use standard negotiating techniques to try to end up with something close to what the pilots say they want.

Now maybe the pilot group may be changing its opinions recently, given the recent change in events (at least if the controversy on this board is any indication), but please don't shoot the "messengers"!!!

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Well ASACAPT, I would hope that it wouldn't take 18 years for this contract to come up for re-negotiation. Again, present day industry standard.

I never said I didn't want duty rigs, the response was they will negotiate w/o minimum day rigs.

 

[Sinca3]

Why is it OK for an ASA CR7 capt to make $95.68 a year (Company's last proposal) when Chitaco CR7 Capt will make $103.25 in october 2007 at the 18 year longevity. Their payrate for a 20 year longevity is $108.47.

Keep in mind that this agreement according to the company will last for 5 years.....

Why should we not have a duty rig when SkyWest has one.

The list can go on and on...

Thank You!!

 

[goahead]

Thank You!!

maybe you missed the following threads to the question, and who knows but I agree that a constant pay per a/c is bullsh_t

 

[sweptback]

ALPA, did you really believe that the company would even consider this? A proposal that would put us at the highest cost of every fleet. To remain competitive the CR7 will have to take a cut in pay, not a 9.0% raise.

The payrates that ALPA is proposing don't even come close to Comair's contract. As mentioned otherwise in the thread, CHQ will have higher payrates than us. Keep in mind that the contract is for 4 years, plus time to negotiate. Do you still want to make now what you're making in 7 years?

Cost of living index increases 3% a year. Our contract was amendable in 2002. ALPA is actually asking for LESS than our current rates, ADJUSTED FOR COST OF LIVING INCREASES. That to me is a sacrifice. You don't think that the Delta Connection Agreement has a mechanism to increase block hour rates for each year due to inflation? Why shouldn't we have one then?

Keep in mind too that ALPA has shown movement on our payrates, and will show additional movement if the company would negotiate. The company is not negotiating, rather they have INCREASED their demands for FO paycuts.

Duty Pay, Trip Pay,
and Minimum Day
Credits

ASA CNC Proposal
Incorporation of the following rigs.
Duty: 1 for 2
Trip: 1 for 3.75
Min day: 4
hr and 20 min average on a trip basis.

Management expressed that an agreement will have to be
reached without any type of minimum day, duty/trip rigs.

When you are given the months flying from mainline on short notice you have to work with what you are given and it isn’t always pretty. You should be able to come to an agreement w/o min day.

SkyWest has a minimum day credit, as do many other airlines. They get the same schedules from Delta, right? A minimum day protects you from sitting in the Crown Plaza for 36 hours in MCN for your 1.5hr 3 day. Do you like sitting in hotels without getting paid? I sure don't.

Also, trip and duty rigs are more common in the regional industry than you might think.

Additional Pay Credit

ASA CNC Proposal
For clarity and to provide a quick and easy credit review, we have proposed to add a chart summarizing all credits agreed to contractually.

Company - NO RESPONSE – I wouldn’t have responded either

ASA CNC Proposal
Pay credit summary
The pilot will be provided with a monthly pay-credit summary to enable him to accurately track block and credit pay he receives.

Company - NO RESPONSE – Again (WHY would they)

These items cost the company no money once they have their software set up! Given the problems we have with our payroll department, why is this not a good thing?

Also, this would force the company to update their payroll systems. Maybe we could get rid of our credit pay sheets once and for all. That would save the company a lot of money in processing those every month if it was all done automatically.

Management wants IP/APD monthly guarantee to fall 5 hours over the course of 5 years
This shouldn’t be a deal breaker

It would be a deal breaker if you were an IP working your tail off for the company. Remember that this contract is not just about you.

Section 27
Company wants current language - which works for me. Their isn’t too many guys looking forward to hitting 60 or 65 here at ACEY.

You don't want a better 401k match and a better fund management company? You like having the 8 pitiful choices of funds?

Folks, our competitiveness in the market is not going to be decided by $4/hr in pilot pay costs or 5 hrs/month in IP pay. If you honestly believe that, think about how much that works out to, and then how much money is wasted by having the lease on the puzzle palace GO (and the salaries of all the yahoos running the place) in ATL when the boys in SGU are obvioulsy running the show.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ATLCRJ Driver:

I appreciate that fact you realize how important the scope section of this agreement is. If we don't have jobs, the pay rates don't matter much.

Lets all consider the effect of the around 200 jobs (and 100 upgrades) we lost in SLC. That has some value, particular to the 100 CJR7 Captains (now FO's effected) and everyone else who's quality of life is going to stink due to the loss of relative seniority in ATL.

ALPA's pay opener is in light with what I told the folks when they surveyed me. Perhaps we need to think about the message we send to our CNC.

Candidly, managements failure to respond to some of our requests seems rediculous to the point of being designed to anger us. For example the explanation of pay credits. They have the data, it costs nothing to share it. Also, FO pay is so miniscule that the Company is betting they can pull one over on FO's who hope by taking a pay cut they can get some PIC. That is not fair (FO's work hard and have DO have the responsibility of being a Professional Flight Crew member, although not all of them take their "profession" seriously. Lowering pay will have a negative effect on professional pilots who already feel the "profession" is in question) I'm a Captain who feels strongly we should hold the line on FO pay, even if it costs us a little on the Capt. rates. This isn't Gulfstream and I get paid to fly with a Professional Crew - not some 300 hour wonder who has half his time in the sim. I would like our airline to continue to attract good pilots.

The message I've been recieving is that Skywest is ready to go nuclear on us. We have already lost one of our cities. The "sudden catastrophic demise" of our airline verbiage leaves little room for interpretation. No one on the CNC wants that to happen either.

Because of the FO rates, I really don't take Skywest's offer seriously. If this goes to some kind of arbitration, then ALPA has made a smart move to leave some room for the arbitrator to split the difference.

~~~^~~~

 

[cushman_500]

for all of you that want to settle for the crud the company is proposing thinking you will move on, where do you think you are going to go. do you think that once you get your 1000 pic that everyone is going to be beating down your door? a lot of us asa pukes are going to have to realize you are going to be here a while. you are freakin right i want an industry leading contract, if i wanted to take a paycut and work in worse conditions i would have gone to mesa. with the profit margin asa is making they can afford to pay us what we are worth.

oh wait if forgot, im an fo, my only job is to do the weight and balance and back up the autopilot. wow, im overpaid, i should get poverty wages.

 

[~~~^~~~]

CHQ has no one on those high payscales. ASA does. Big difference.

Excellent point and something we have to watch out for.

As Skywest slowly draws ASA down (5 airplanes, then 13 airplanes) they replace ASA's 18 year Captains with eager three year upgrades. The difference for a CR7 Captain is huge. I bet you it is more than $50,000 per pilot.

Brian LaBreque spoke to our class and flat out said he and Skippy wished pilots would move on after 5 years because longevity was expensive. They joked that they should shut down the airline every 5 years and hire new people. Since then Brian says his comments were misinterpreted, but I heard them with my own ears.

It is a problem in this industry that when you have a decent job, the job disappears and everyone hauls butt over to the "new" airline (ie Jet Blue three years ago) This is exactly why we need a strong national union with a coherent scope policy that includes the little guys too - so we can keep what we got after we earned it.

 

[shamrock]

You really think we should get industry leading pay along with the leading duty/trip rigs? You can't have it all.

The company is proposing paycuts AND no trip/duty rigs/minimum day. If we were to get the benefit of trip and duty rigs pay raises might be negotiable (no paycuts!), but since the Company will not budge on the rigs I won't budge on pay.

You say we can't have it all? Fine, but the company sure as h#ll can't have it all either i.e. a contract that includes a paycut but no work rules.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Great post sweptback, and again I am not anti-union simply making a point. At present we are the highest paid CR7 driver in the business with the exception of Horizon. CMR is due for a bump in ’08, but we will see if that actually manifests itself. CHQ is paid more on the planned EMB190s only. On there EMB170 top pay is 99/h on the EMB190 109/h and ASA CR7 103/h. The CR7 will have to take a hit and the CR2 will need the current contract bump per year.

I don’t like sitting in a hotel either but to compare SKW skd and ASA skd is like night and day. 100% of ASA flying is for DL as oppose to ~1/3 for SKW. With the adjustments DL made to our flying, the skd department has no choice but to leave a crew at outstations as there are no options to get them out.

Pay summary sheets are nice to have, but is it really necessary? Would you hold negotiations for it?

You are right, these negotiations are not all about me. I have not done the research to determine what standard wages are for IPs/APDs, yet these wages also must meet industry standard.

If all ALPA was trying to do was get us better choices for our 401K, I would be all for it. Yet, again ALPA is going for it all and focusing on the wrong thing IMHO.

Pick out the most important issues and save the rest for 2010-11…

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Also, if ALPA has shown movement on its pay rates what is the latest news on this. Even on th ALPA website, nothing has been posted since May 25. Is the CNC and management passing proposals while in recess. Let us know...

 

[~~~^~~~]

I don’t like sitting in a hotel either but to compare SKW skd and ASA skd is like night and day. 100% of ASA flying is for DL as oppose to ~1/3 for SKW. With the adjustments DL made to our flying, the skd department has no choice but to leave a crew at outstations as there are no options to get them out.

That is just simply not true. I have spent several nights on the road and several nights in airplanes because lazy crew schedulers too worthless and inconsiderate to be inconvenienced for 5 minutes to do their job. It is not an impossible job, they just are not held responsible for their negligence. It costs the company nothing to leave us on the road - that must be changed - expecially if we are going to be flexible on other sections of the contract.

The Company MUST have an economic incentive to stop wasting our time. As far as I'm concerned DH should pay more than flight time, just to encourage them to stop wasting both our time and their resources. Why does it take 80% of our seniority list to fly through integration and 100% of our seniority list to sit at the airport while nothing moves during an ice storm?

There are a couple of crew schedulers that if they come up missing, the cops are going to be looking around my back yard.

Everyone, get your resume out. This airline is going to ither crash, or concede, either way, ASA is back to being Another $hitty Airline.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Fins, you are right if skd leaves you out there for no apparent reason than shear incompetance. I was referring to skd 24 hour l/o straight from the bid package.

 

[atrdriver]

The payrates that ALPA is proposing don't even come close to Comair's contract. As mentioned otherwise in the thread, CHQ will have higher payrates than us. Keep in mind that the contract is for 4 years, plus time to negotiate. Do you still want to make now what you're making in 7 years?

Actually the company proposal is for 5 years, not 4.

 

[BigPappa]

Superkooter,

Same counts for captains, they are there only because the FAA requires them! The plane flies better by itself then when you the captain attempt to fly it.

 

[LAMESAUCE]

i heard that delta global has replaced some of your ground school instructors? is that making IP pay an issue still?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

They are in command of an aircraft with different payloads. F/Os only have a job because the FAA requires it. Their jobs at least at ASA are nothing more than a backup auto-pilot and load-manifest calculator.

Now here's someone who slept through the CRM class.
Classy. Real classy.

 

[Kerveball]

I don't see what is so bad? F/Os should make the same on all A/C since their job is the same on all aircraft. Seem pretty good there is even a pay increase on the 50

They are in command of an aircraft with different payloads. F/O's only have a job because the FAA requires it. Their jobs at least at ASA are nothing more than a backup auto-pilot and load-manifest calculator.

Another page out of the "You Might Be a Regional Captain If" book.

What kind of A$$HOLE are you Kooter? Because the FAA requires it? I'm sure you have never had an FO save your ass right? You've never set a wrong alt, readback something wrong, or almost clip a wingtip on the ramp huh? You are another one of those Captain GOD's that everyone loves to fly with.

Why don't you think back (about last year for you I'm sure) when you were an FO. Wouldn't you be pissed when you were paired up with a dicksmack Captain like yourself? You're just an accident waiting to happen with your know-it-all mentality. Because CRM hasn't greatly reduced accident rates or anything huh big guy?

We're trying to come together to get a contract done here, not degrade people because they simply haven't been with the company as long as you have. Please get pissed at management and leave the company! You'll do us all a favor. There will be some (backup autopilot and load manifest calculator) FO more than happy to take your place!