ASA Negotiations

[atlcrjdriver]

This entire propoganda deal is a joke from day one. JA and BL says we must stay competative to stay in business and grow. While ALPA says we are doing great and must get our COLA pay raise on all fleets per rank and file.
No matter which side of the fence you are on, negotiations are about give and take. The compnay has given us many improvements in the area of scheduling. This is on of our big QOL issue we needed resolved.

We should focus on issues that we can actually win such as scope and merger protection. These areas cost nothing and protect the line.
To push issues like COLA increases in pay with strict trip rigs with retro pay are simply not going to fly. Speaking as an CR2 FO, I would support a single jet and single prop FO pay rate. The difference is only about 4p/h prior to upgrade. split the difference 2 dollars either side and finish it. I can't think of very many FOs that would oppose this to get the deal done. The cpts proposal by the company is not that bad to "close this place down" for. And B4 someone says it, this is not concessions for growth but to simply stay competative.

Fly Safe...

 

[Pogue Mahone]

this is not concessions for growth but to simply stay competative.

Fly Safe...

It is concessions for growth. We are already competitive. We are the MOST PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN THE COUNTRY.

Profitablility is a function or more that pilot pay.

Get it?

 

[atlcrjdriver]

In this business your highest costs are employees and fuel. You can't do anything about the cost of fuel, so what is left. To remain competative, you pay what the industry will support. We ranked the most profitable regional last quarter, which is great. How long do you suppose we can sustain that with the raises ALPA has proposed? Don't get me wrong, I would love a raise with retro to boot. But I would also like to have a job 4-5 years from now.

Get It?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Coex MANAGEMENT is trying to bully them into an unneccesary round of concessions by threating to use CHQ. Chq can't do all that flying and won't and everyone knows it.

Point of clarification: XJT management has not approached XJT ALPA about concessions. And it isn't XJT management "threatening to use CHQ" - it is CAL management who contracted with CHQ to possibly do some flying in the future (it is a question mark now that XJT has chosen to retain all 69 jets).

-Neal

 

["GO AROUND"]

Beg to differ. Whats good about being displaced from all of your major domiciles forcing the WHOLE pilot group to move?

That has NOTHING to do with the content of their contract. It had to do with UAL and bankruptcy. Fact is their pay and work rules are some of the best still.

 

[sweptback]

We should focus on issues that we can actually win such as scope and merger protection. These areas cost nothing and protect the line.
To push issues like COLA increases in pay with strict trip rigs with retro pay are simply not going to fly. Speaking as an CR2 FO, I would support a single jet and single prop FO pay rate. The difference is only about 4p/h prior to upgrade. split the difference 2 dollars either side and finish it. I can't think of very many FOs that would oppose this to get the deal done. The cpts proposal by the company is not that bad to "close this place down" for. And B4 someone says it, this is not concessions for growth but to simply stay competative.

Why on earth do you support a single FO payrate for all aircraft? Should FOs flying the 700 not get a piece of the higher revenue generated from having extra seats? Why on earth would anybody bid the 700s if they didn't get paid extra for flying it?

Single payrates are a bad thing. Just because everybody else is agreeing to them does not mean it's the right thing to do.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Allow me to clearify, I propose a single jet FO rate and a Prop FO rate. Not one rate for all a/c. For me, I don't bid the CR7 because most lines are bad and that extra 4/h makes no difference. If I need extra cash that month, I can pick up a dayline and make up the difference plus. Also, I can keep my 15-16 days off. With this the CR2 would pick up 2/h and the CR7 would lose 2/h. If this will create that much of a hardship then, I really don't know what to tell you. The whole point is forward progression and upgrade, right. This may hurt if you were planning to be a career FO.

Fly Safe...

 

[HoserASA]

Maybe the union could publish the open items and compare each of the open items to the competition along with what has already been agreed to and how that ranks with the competition.

C'mon JB, you know where to find the open items. If you don't, ask LJ, she'll show you. Spin spin spin!

Hoser

 

[HoserASA]

Well in my experience management lies less.
I don't need proof to see that ALPA is lying to me all I have to do is look around.

Give me the SKYW contract... boot the union... I'll take my raise with a smile and chuckle as the senior guys try to get back on the 50 for a better schedule.

Your experience huh. What a joke you are. You may not need proof because you're either stupid or management. Why don't you give examples (other then the ones you listed which aren't lies) where ALPA, specifically ALPA ASA, has lied to you. Can't do it huh?

As far as the SKYW contract, surveys done by our Negotiating Committee made it clear to them what the majority of pilots want in the contract. That's the way it works. You'll just have to deal with it, if you're even a pilot.

Hoser

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Hoser,
If ALPA/ALPA ASA and management had to go to court and swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...They would both just do better by pleading the fifth.

There is always a way to spin information to suit your needs/agenda...

Fly Safe...

 

[HoserASA]

Hoser,
If ALPA/ALPA ASA and management had to go to court and swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...They would both just do better by pleading the fifth.

There is always a way to spin information to suit your needs/agenda...

Fly Safe...

...true. But me thinks the Co spinning much more on these negotiations.

Hoser

 

[Crash Pad]

I believe the company posted exactly what they were asking. I could be wrong.
I pay my dues and do the secret handshake... why won't ALPA mail me exactly what they are asking for?
This is my second airline, second union, guess what it is the same sh1t.
Go ahead and tell me what the ASA ALPA has done in the last four years. Printed a lot of stickers, slogans, billboards, picket signs, etc. And for what a giant pile of jack $h!t.
I'm naive. I can look around the industry and see that the Union has been broken at every airline on every level. Call me a liar and naive... I prefer pessimist or realist.

 

[sweptback]

I believe the company posted exactly what they were asking. I could be wrong.
I pay my dues and do the secret handshake... why won't ALPA mail me exactly what they are asking for?

The company posted their proposals, but that was a while ago.

The union has emailed all pilots the remaining open items and what ALPA and the company's position is. If you didn't get the email, it's on the ASA MEC site.

 

[atrdriver]

If I upgrade I make more. Career you say... Hey I'm gone when I get my time. I don't care to be a regional lifer.

Don't you think that about 90% of the Captains here said the same thing when they were FO's? It's not a sure thing that you will be able to move on once you get your time, and if you can't, then you have to live with whatever you voted in. If you think that you getting out is a sure thing then you really have to wake up.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I believe the company posted exactly what they were asking. I could be wrong.
I pay my dues and do the secret handshake... why won't ALPA mail me exactly what they are asking for?
This is my second airline, second union, guess what it is the same sh1t.
Go ahead and tell me what the ASA ALPA has done in the last four years. Printed a lot of stickers, slogans, billboards, picket signs, etc. And for what a giant pile of jack $h!t.
I'm naive. I can look around the industry and see that the Union has been broken at every airline on every level. Call me a liar and naive... I prefer pessimist or realist.

You are not worth discussing anything. Apply to SkyWest and help Jerry keep the union off their property. You can find Breiling in the Bada Bing lounge. You two should be thick as theives.

 

[Tomct]

Crash...so you are a pessimist and realist! I call BS! If you think that you are going to "get your time and move on..." you better put on your "REALIST" glasses and see how many people with A LOT more than 1000hrs PIC, that are still here or flying at other regionals. Yeah, YOUR a REALIST!!!:laugh:

Joe...if we are soooo expensive, than WHY are we the #1 airline in the money? We are also the CHEAPEST to operate! Why aren't we getting the skwst 50's. We are MUCH cheaper than they are!!! I'll tell you why, WE MAKE HUGE MONEY!!! The last time they threatened us with aircraft for growth, we told them to go scr@w themselves and we STILL got the aircraft. It is just mgmnt trying to squeeze as much as they can out of us so that they can line their pockets with even MORE of OUR MONEY!!! Yeah, we should just roll over and accept this kind of treatment....RIIIIIIGHT!! Not going to Happen!

 

[D'Angelo]

We were saying the same thing over here at comair. We were "wildly profitable" at one point and then drug into bankruptcy. If you think the numbers cant be manipulated then your a fool. You can get your industry leading contract, look what happened to us at comair. We were supposedly very cheap too.

 

[JoeMerchant]

That has NOTHING to do with the content of their contract. It had to do with UAL and bankruptcy. Fact is their pay and work rules are some of the best still.

It has everything to do with the content of their contract. Air Wisc. and ACA had two of the 5 best regional ALPA contracts. The other 3 were ALG, PDT, and CMR. Air Wisc. and ACA lost their UAL contract. Air Wisc. may have stayed in business for now, but they lost their United contract, and everyone had to change domiciles.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Comair and Mesaba are bankrupt and MANAGEMNT is using the law to fcuk them over.

ACA had idiotic MANAGEMENT that tried in vain to implement a fundamentally flawed business plan and fell flat on their a$$. Imagine that.

Coex MANAGEMENT is trying to bully them into an unneccesary round of concessions by threating to use CHQ. Chq can't do all that flying and won't and everyone knows it.

We still have to compete with bankrupt carriers. I don't like it anymore than you, but the fact is non-bankrupt carriers have to compete with bankrupt carriers

ACA only went independant because they didn't "pay to play" with United anymore. ACA and Air Wisc. cost structure was more than United was willing to pay

Coex Management isn't asking for concessions YET. However CAL wants to lower it's cost for Coex service and the exclusivity contract that XJT has with CAL is ending this year. Therefor CAL is "going shopping". If we had a real union, there would be nowhere to shop, however we don't.

 

[JoeMerchant]

C'mon JB, you know where to find the open items. If you don't, ask LJ, she'll show you. Spin spin spin!

Hoser

I know where to find them, I've seen them. Re-read my post. I asked if the current open items can be compared to the industry standards. In other words, how do our 70 seat, retirement, and instructor sections compare to the "competition". Shouldn't be anything wrong with keeping the membership informed as to how our demands conform to pattern bargaining.... should there Hoser?

 

["GO AROUND"]

I believe the company posted exactly what they were asking. I could be wrong.
I pay my dues and do the secret handshake... why won't ALPA mail me exactly what they are asking for?
This is my second airline, second union, guess what it is the same sh1t.
Go ahead and tell me what the ASA ALPA has done in the last four years. Printed a lot of stickers, slogans, billboards, picket signs, etc. And for what a giant pile of jack $h!t.
I'm naive. I can look around the industry and see that the Union has been broken at every airline on every level. Call me a liar and naive... I prefer pessimist or realist.

Still didn't answer the question though. When ASA ALPA lied to you? Not getting you the info you want is not lying to you.

 

["GO AROUND"]

It has everything to do with the content of their contract. Air Wisc. and ACA had two of the 5 best regional ALPA contracts. The other 3 were ALG, PDT, and CMR. Air Wisc. and ACA lost their UAL contract. Air Wisc. may have stayed in business for now, but they lost their United contract, and everyone had to change domiciles.

And they lost all the work rules and pay rates cause they lost the UAL feed? They found other flying. Don't compare them to ACA,PDT,ALG cause they are totally different.

 

["GO AROUND"]

I know where to find them, I've seen them. Re-read my post. I asked if the current open items can be compared to the industry standards. In other words, how do our 70 seat, retirement, and instructor sections compare to the "competition". Shouldn't be anything wrong with keeping the membership informed as to how our demands conform to pattern bargaining.... should there Hoser?

You're missing the whole picture. Even if our 70 rates and IP section are higher, the overall costs at ASA are lower and we are the most profitable in the industry right now.

For me, I don't want an airline retirement and I don't know why anyone would. They are like social security for people under 40, you will never see it so don't bet on getting anything from it. I make my own retirement, give me the money so I can invest it.

 

[US Flyer]

Remove user from ignore list
D'Angelo This message is hidden because D'Angelo is on your ignore list.</SPAN>

I love the fact that I can't read the above post!!!!!!!

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Tomct, put the pistl down and relax. Just because we made a profit last quarter doesn't mean that we can remain competative on the CR7 flying. Just as many have said, the CR7/9 is were the future of regional flying is going, not the CR2. If you look past last months spread sheet and down the road a bit, it should become clear that we must bring our wages in line with industry standard for all fleets. The way to get a piece of to co profit is by defined language profit sharing. When the company makes extra cash so do we and when they don't we don't.

No spin required ...

 

[John Pennekamp]

Tomct, put the pistl down and relax. Just because we made a profit last quarter doesn't mean that we can remain competative on the CR7 flying. Just as many have said, the CR7/9 is were the future of regional flying is going, not the CR2. If you look past last months spread sheet and down the road a bit, it should become clear that we must bring our wages in line with industry standard for all fleets. The way to get a piece of to co profit is by defined language profit sharing. When the company makes extra cash so do we and when they don't we don't.

No spin required ...

That's total BS. Total compensation package, the Skywest pilots make a lot more than we do. Additionally, our seat mile costs are lower.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

John, look at the big picture. The total package that ALPA is proposing will not keep us competative on the CR7. We are already high on that side and any raise will take it out of the park. Our CASM is lower as the bulk of our fleet is CR2, which we operate at if not slightly lower than industry.

Fly Safe...

 

[Crash Pad]

ALPA:
1. We need a 97% strike vote to get the contract done... BS
2. Picketing will show unity... BS
3. The company will not shrink if our contract is too big... BS (see all listed examples, ACA, Comair, etc...)
4. SKYW is flying the 70 for 50 rates... BS they make more than us and most carriers... On this one they are actually raising the bar

One other side note. I've read here that ALPA is looking for retirement or pension. Tell me you all read. You realise that this is the dumbest thing a union can ask for. Go get em ALPA. Strike now.

 

[Crash Pad]

Crash...so you are a pessimist and realist! I call BS! If you think that you are going to "get your time and move on..." you better put on your "REALIST" glasses and see how many people with A LOT more than 1000hrs PIC, that are still here or flying at other regionals. Yeah, YOUR a REALIST!!!:laugh:

Hey I'm young. I still got a shot. If you think I'm going to be at this airline for 20 years b!tching about the same stuff... Sorry. Two things give me a better shot with my 1000. I can and will go global. The other is I have ambition.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Hey I'm young. I still got a shot. If you think I'm going to be at this airline for 20 years b!tching about the same stuff... Sorry. Two things give me a better shot with my 1000. I can and will go global. The other is I have ambition.

I am back to the original assesment. You are management troll. You are here to spread doom, gloom, fear and dissention.

Get back to work. Go play Tetris or look at porn or whatever you clowns at the GO do all day.