ASA Mgmt and ALPA meeting

[PCL_128]

Says you and ALPA.... I don't agree and will do what is best for me, as will most ALPA members.... something you need to realize..... To be honest, I don't care what YOU think.... My job doesn't belong to you or to ALPA... something you need to understand....

Fine, but then don't ask or expect me to support ALPA. If that is ALPA's position, then I don't support it.... and then I don't support ALPA.... Actually, you are more honest than most ALPA cheerleaders.... the battle has been lost.... We will continue to fight separately.....

You're only concerned with yourself. The majority of ASA's pilots don't have the same goals that you do. They fully intend to leave ASA and go to a mainline carrier. Your objectives are at direct odds with theirs, and they are the majority. Sorry, Joe, but majority rules.

I notice you decided not to address the part of my post that dealt with why I don't want to become a "real" pilot like you... very telling..... Your whole strategy is based on selling me something I don't want.....

Never used the phrase "real pilot," Joe. That's your concoction. I don't look down on regional pilots as you imply. Hell, I just was one a few months ago, and I spent over 6 years there. But, I do think it's a mistake to try to make a career out of a regional job. You obviously disagree, so we'll see who was right in a couple of decades.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You're only concerned with yourself. The majority of ASA's pilots don't have the same goals that you do. They fully intend to leave ASA and go to a mainline carrier. Your objectives are at direct odds with theirs, and they are the majority. Sorry, Joe, but majority rules.

1. I would venture to say that the majority of pilots are only "concerned with themselves"..... you can argue about whether that is best or not, but it is a safe assumption...

2. Majority rules hugh.... OK, so if the majority say that slavery is OK, does it rule? If the majority say that women shouldn't vote, does that rule? Majority rule isn't always the best, and it doesn't provide any protection for the minority.... something ALPA and you don't seem to understand....

Never used the phrase "real pilot," Joe. That's your concoction. I don't look down on regional pilots as you imply. Hell, I just was one a few months ago, and I spent over 6 years there. But, I do think it's a mistake to try to make a career out of a regional job. You obviously disagree, so we'll see who was right in a couple of decades.

Well it's the feeling some of get from our own union. Because of a "perfect storm", it doesn't make sense for some of us to move on.... yet the union doesn't seem to understand that, or it ignores it for the benefit of the majority....

From what I undertand, you are still at a "regional", only with bigger airplanes.... things don't sound all that rosy at the big A on the other side of C....

You are right that nobody knows until they retire and look back.... so it is very wrong for the union to make those judgment calls prior to that point.... Many people have moved on only to regret their decisions, and many have moved and enjoyed their decisions.... that is the choice of the union member and the responsibliltiy of the union member..... The union should not try and make those decisions for the member.... and it has a DFR to all of it's members regardless of the decision.....

 

[PCL_128]

1. I would venture to say that the majority of pilots are only "concerned with themselves"..... you can argue about whether that is best or not, but it is a safe assumption...

Agreed. That's a major problem for the Association. Everyone is concerned with their own self interests.

2. Majority rules hugh.... OK, so if the majority say that slavery is OK, does it rule? If the majority say that women shouldn't vote, does that rule? Majority rule isn't always the best, and it doesn't provide any protection for the minority.... something ALPA and you don't seem to understand....

So you think minority rule is better, Joe? The overwhelming majority of pilots view the regionals as stepping stones to the mainline carriers and don't want to see more flying outsourced. If you want to finish out your career at ASA, then you're going to have to live with the fact that the majority of your fellow pilots will be working against your wishes to bring more flying and bigger planes to you.

From what I undertand, you are still at a "regional", only with bigger airplanes.... things don't sound all that rosy at the big A on the other side of C....

Things aren't perfect, but it certainly ain't a regional. We aren't competing with a dozen other carriers for the latest RFP. We have control over the FL code with our agreement, just as the DL pilots have control of the DL code. If the current TA goes through (hopefully not), then we'll be giving up some of our flying, but it is ultimately our choice. Big difference from a regional where you take whatever you can get via RFP.

The union should not try and make those decisions for the member....

"The union" isn't making any decisions at all. The majority of the membership directs the union, and it's clear that the majority favors tighter scope controls at mainline carriers and no more flying being outsourced. If you want that to change, then I suggest you get to work on convincing the majority that your way is better.

 

[goodpilotithink]

You're only concerned with yourself. The majority of ASA's pilots don't have the same goals that you do. They fully intend to leave ASA and go to a mainline carrier. Your objectives are at direct odds with theirs, and they are the majority. Sorry, Joe, but majority rules.



Never used the phrase "real pilot," Joe. That's your concoction. I don't look down on regional pilots as you imply. Hell, I just was one a few months ago, and I spent over 6 years there. But, I do think it's a mistake to try to make a career out of a regional job. You obviously disagree, so we'll see who was right in a couple of decades.

It is comical that some one thinks airtran is a step up from ASA or the likes..Same job, just bigger airplanes.
I have a few friend there...they have told me things like "same ol sheet, diff airline", "sched is just as bad as any regionals"...lol

 

[ohplease!]

It is comical that some one thinks airtran is a step up from ASA or the likes..Same job, just bigger airplanes.
I have a few friend there...they have told me things like "same ol sheet, diff airline", "sched is just as bad as any regionals"...lol

Here's a news flash for ya: if you listen to pilots from ANY airline (yes that includes the majors AND freighters) you'll hear the same thing. To get their honest feelings about it, they can't know you're "lower on the totem pole" than they are.

 

[PCL_128]

It is comical that some one thinks airtran is a step up from ASA or the likes..Same job, just bigger airplanes.
I have a few friend there...they have told me things like "same ol sheet, diff airline", "sched is just as bad as any regionals"...lol

Keep telling yourself that. Less competition for my buddies that want to work here.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL:

Joe's point is that ALPA has the same duty to the ASA pilots as United, FedEx, or Delta pilots. His opinion and mine is that no commercial pilot in 121 service should be in a "stepping stone" job. Once a pilot is flying revenue passengers, they are full fledged airline pilots.

You are correct that AirTran currently owns its scope (and hope things stay that way) and Delta thinks it owns theirs (that cat is at least head and shoulders out of the bag).

ALPA is going to have to make scope stronger and in doing so the majors are going to have to reach out to their codeshare partners to develop enforceable brand scope and job protections. None of us has the power to make these needed changes on our own.

Airlines come and go. Airlines that were the "flavor of the month" can become losers and vice versa. Val-u-Jet looked like career suicide at one time, then it became the greatest place for the quick upgrade on new equipment. Now, their contract has many outsiders scratching their heads wondering what the future holds. My Dad thought those guys who quit Tigers to fly for that little Falcon 20 startup in Memphis were nuts.... and that turned out to be one of the best golden tickets in aviation.

Hopefully what we can achieve through a union is to add some career stability to an uncertain profession. Joe's point is spot on, that we can not make assumptions about the quality of other people's work. As a union, we should simply offer our total support to the very best of our ability.

This includes raising standards and barriers for entry to the profession. A pilot can get in trouble faster in a B1900, or E120, than they can a 777. The size and percieved quality of the job should make no difference in the level of representation afforded an ALPA member.

I'm not sure I support all of Joe's methods, but he is spot on that discrimination within our union is poision to the profession.

~~~^~~~

 

[PCL_128]

PCL:

Joe's point is that ALPA has the same duty to the ASA pilots as United, FedEx, or Delta pilots. His opinion and mine is that no commercial pilot in 121 service should be in a "stepping stone" job. Once a pilot is flying revenue passengers, they are full fledged airline pilots.

That's a wonderfully idealistic notion, fins, but it's just not realistic. With the regional whipsaw well established at this point with multiple carriers operating for each mainline carrier, I just don't see a way to make regionals anything other than stepping stone jobs. The regionals are stuck in a perpetual RFP bid. No regional flying is secure. Trying to make a career out of a regional carrier seems like a fools errand.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL:

Your point is well taken. But I think ALPA has a moral imperative to avoid leaving members behind.

Unity to a union is like fuel. Without it, you might coast a little way trading altitude for speed, but you will not get far and the result will be disasterous.

Best regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[USCtrojan]

PCL:

Your point is well taken. But I think ALPA has a moral imperative to avoid leaving members behind.

Unity to a union is like fuel. Without it, you might coast a little way trading altitude for speed, but you will not get far and the result will be disasterous.

Best regards,
~~~^~~~

Good to see you again fins, as always, your insight is much appreciated.

Trojan

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed. That's a major problem for the Association. Everyone is concerned with their own self interests.

Agreed:beer:
I've been watching this problem for 15 years within ALPA... It is a major problem..... I have accepted it as reality.... No more problem for me.... I now look out for my own self interests.... When the "Association" wants to deal with it, maybe I will change.....

So you think minority rule is better, Joe? The overwhelming majority of pilots view the regionals as stepping stones to the mainline carriers and don't want to see more flying outsourced. If you want to finish out your career at ASA, then you're going to have to live with the fact that the majority of your fellow pilots will be working against your wishes to bring more flying and bigger planes to you.

There are problems with both "majority rules" and "minority rules".... The best solution is "majority rules, with protections for the minority"..... Even then, don't expect the minority to just give blanket support.....

Even in this country, we don't have pure "majority rules"......It has it's problems......

Things aren't perfect, but it certainly ain't a regional. We aren't competing with a dozen other carriers for the latest RFP. We have control over the FL code with our agreement, just as the DL pilots have control of the DL code. If the current TA goes through (hopefully not), then we'll be giving up some of our flying, but it is ultimately our choice. Big difference from a regional where you take whatever you can get via RFP.

Things are far from perfect at Air Tran.... You have a mediocre TA at best that I bet passes.... You have management taking hostages (Lear, etc.).... Your senior most FO doesn't make as much as a senior ASA Capt. and probably has less time off..... I'm done chasing the SJS or "bigger plane is better" BS..... You can have it PCL.... Give me 17 days off a month with 4 weeks of vacation that I turn into 12 weeks and I will be happy flying the "French Air Plow" around.....

"The union" isn't making any decisions at all. The majority of the membership directs the union, and it's clear that the majority favors tighter scope controls at mainline carriers and no more flying being outsourced. If you want that to change, then I suggest you get to work on convincing the majority that your way is better.

I couldn't agree more with your first sentance..... It is like a deer in the headlights........ I will do what is best for me, and if my union doesn't abide by it's DFR, I will enforce that DFR through any and all legal means........... I don't believe in ALPA anymore, and don't even wear the pin anymore.... If the "majority" are against me, then I will fight it.... The "majority" will isn't always right for the "minority".... As a new found "liberal", you should understand that......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Here's a news flash for ya: if you listen to pilots from ANY airline (yes that includes the majors AND freighters) you'll hear the same thing. To get their honest feelings about it, they can't know you're "lower on the totem pole" than they are.

BINGO! We have done it to ourselves..... this "stepping stone" mentality has to stop if things are going to change.... Some whores make great money.... but they are still whores....

The irony is, the entry level jobs are harder and more dangerous.... but they don't pay anything..... Doesn't matter though because we just want to get to the top..... Never mind that the top keeps shrinking and it pays less than the top used to pay.....We keep trying to get there..... It is the ultimate pyramid scheme and we keep playing it....

I'm done playing it.... I will do what is best right now....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Keep telling yourself that. Less competition for my buddies that want to work here.

What does a senior FO at Air Tran make? What does a junior captain make?

 

[JoeMerchant]

PCL:

Joe's point is that ALPA has the same duty to the ASA pilots as United, FedEx, or Delta pilots. His opinion and mine is that no commercial pilot in 121 service should be in a "stepping stone" job. Once a pilot is flying revenue passengers, they are full fledged airline pilots.

You are correct that AirTran currently owns its scope (and hope things stay that way) and Delta thinks it owns theirs (that cat is at least head and shoulders out of the bag).

ALPA is going to have to make scope stronger and in doing so the majors are going to have to reach out to their codeshare partners to develop enforceable brand scope and job protections. None of us has the power to make these needed changes on our own.

Airlines come and go. Airlines that were the "flavor of the month" can become losers and vice versa. Val-u-Jet looked like career suicide at one time, then it became the greatest place for the quick upgrade on new equipment. Now, their contract has many outsiders scratching their heads wondering what the future holds. My Dad thought those guys who quit Tigers to fly for that little Falcon 20 startup in Memphis were nuts.... and that turned out to be one of the best golden tickets in aviation.

Hopefully what we can achieve through a union is to add some career stability to an uncertain profession. Joe's point is spot on, that we can not make assumptions about the quality of other people's work. As a union, we should simply offer our total support to the very best of our ability.

This includes raising standards and barriers for entry to the profession. A pilot can get in trouble faster in a B1900, or E120, than they can a 777. The size and percieved quality of the job should make no difference in the level of representation afforded an ALPA member.

I'm not sure I support all of Joe's methods, but he is spot on that discrimination within our union is poision to the profession.

~~~^~~~

Well said Fins..... I know you don't support all of my method's, and that is fine... We still respect each other's opinion and we are in different positions....

We both agree on the problems, but you are more optimistic that ALPA can solve those problems....

I am positioning myself based on the fact that I don't believe ALPA will correct it's mistakes and get control of the flying.... I am positioning myself to be able to walk away in 5 years.... That requries ASA to not become the next ALG, ACA, or CCAir.....

Good to hear from you again.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

That's a wonderfully idealistic notion, fins, but it's just not realistic. With the regional whipsaw well established at this point with multiple carriers operating for each mainline carrier, I just don't see a way to make regionals anything other than stepping stone jobs. The regionals are stuck in a perpetual RFP bid. No regional flying is secure. Trying to make a career out of a regional carrier seems like a fools errand.

There you have it folks... The biggest ALPA cheerleader admits that ALPA dropped the ball with whipsaw, and now you aren't supposed to consider these jobs careers..... Never mind that HALF of ALL DOMESTIC flying is done by these "stepping stone jobs"..... Never mind that this mindset will continue to put downward pressure on all domestic flying.....

ALPA screwed up..... There is nothing we can do.... just move on to a "mainline job" that is now worth half of what it used to be......

Great strategy.... Is it any wonder you aren't getting other regionals to sign up?

 

[asadonkey]

PCL is wrong about regionals being a stepping stone.
It shows near-sightedness that got us in this mess in the first place. the fact of the matter is a mid seniority RJ cap making 70K is not something the golden goose steps over... (because she is dead)