ASA/MEC phone survey

[General Lee]

Palerider,

That's not what Delta management sees. They see everyone else taking growth for paycuts. Look at what Skywest did---offering to fly up to 99 seat aircraft for 50 seat wages. They received huge growth from United after doing that.

Also, your remarks about not having to take paycuts because you were profitible are flawed. Where do you think most of the profits were made and then subsequently been burned in the last two years? Answer: mainline profits in the late '90s. Where do you think management got the money to buy all of your RJs and the current ones on order? Mainline profits from the late '90s. Your current profits have helped us in the last couple of years, but that was after our profits were burned up. If it wasn't for those billions, we would have sunk a year ago. We are all a part of one large corporation--and it is time to "share the pain." Everyone baby, and we will contribute too---no doubt.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Palerider957]

General:

I wouldn't pretent to have the depth of knowlege about the industry that you do. And I appreciate your dedication to your pilot group.

For our position: All ASA/Comair pilots have is each other, NO ONE else is looking out for us. It's up to us to make the best deal we can under tough circumstances. Please understand that no matter how much we discuss things in this forum, fundamentally ASA/CMR and DAL pilots will have some disagreements--not readily resolved. This is not a sign of disrespect, it's simply a matter of "standing where you sit."

We (especially ASA) are underpaid for the work and equipment we operate, and the routes we fly. We are not some half-assed operation, flying bugsmashers only to MCN, and VLD 5 times a day. We are both (ASA/CMR) truly National airlines, flying state of the art equipment, on par with the most professional airlines in the world.

At this time our company is making money consistantly (ASA has NEVER lost money--even pre Delta buyout), we have a right to expect that for our efforts, a resonable amount of compensation should be offered, combined with a quality and respectful contract. Right now we have neither.

You can hit us with a pile of statistics, but once again, I won't vote for any TA that includes concessions, no sir.

Let us agree to disagree.

 

[Sinca3]

Palerider,

That's not what Delta management sees. They see everyone else taking growth for paycuts. Look at what Skywest did---offering to fly up to 99 seat aircraft for 50 seat wages. They received huge growth from United after doing that.

Also, your remarks about not having to take paycuts because you were profitible are flawed. Where do you think most of the profits were made and then subsequently been burned in the last two years? Answer: mainline profits in the late '90s. Where do you think management got the money to buy all of your RJs and the current ones on order? Mainline profits from the late '90s. Your current profits have helped us in the last couple of years, but that was after our profits were burned up. If it wasn't for those billions, we would have sunk a year ago. We are all a part of one large corporation--and it is time to "share the pain." Everyone baby, and we will contribute too---no doubt.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General Lee,
I have been trolling these boards for the better part of 4 years now! I rarely respond to post no matter how bad or aggrevating they may be.
I must ask you though, are "regional pilots" paid what they are worth? Do you think that we are compensated fairly for the work we do, which by the way is much more than any main line pilot out there! Am I jealous or even mad at this fact? H3LL no, I think it is great that you were able to negotiate what you have. I strongly believe that you get what you negotiate. I think it is in bad taste to ask anyone that is already under compensated to take or even consider pay cuts!!(Especially those in contract negotiations)
Do you think only "main line" pilots are allowed to get the type of compensationyou currently enjoy? I surely hope not! I think in all reality that you could care less what we get paid, but b/c of the bad times the industry is in you think it only fair that all pilots take pay cuts b/c YOU might have too. Yes, we fly under the DAL banner! Yes we are owned by DAL! You only seem to realize these facts when it benefits you and only then. I am tired of that mind set from you or any other pilot that might be of the same opinion.
I'm off my box now, "disclaimer"....the content of this post is not meant to offend anyone including the General. The views expressed are of my own opinion eminating from my tiny brain.
I'm tired and need a drink...long 3 day trip!

Cheers

Sinca3

 

[General Lee]

Palerider,

Believe me, I do not disagree with you that you deserve more money and more respect. I flew for the regionals--E120s---and I have told more than one 727FO (when I was the FE) when they were saying something not nice about the Brasilia or CRJ in front of us for takeoff---that they shoud shut up and that you guys work a lot harder than they do.....

What I think I was saying is that Delta is "going for it" now. They know that other airlines (ie Skywest) are going for growth over pay. They know they have an opening to ask for this, and really they are doing it through the back door to you---by requesting Comair to take cuts. It doesn't matter whether or not I agree with them (I don't)----they see an opportunity. They will go for it.
Now, they also see an opportunity to ask us for cuts too, and we will probably give some to them, but we have more leverage. Dalpa can allow more 70 seaters for a price, and we can also tell them to shove it and we'll finally get a new contract in 2007 (after two long years of negotiating). But, they want and probably need the money now--and we know that. I know that we have said that we want everyone to "share the pain"--and that doesn't sound fair to you. Well, I know that sucks, and we never said "how much"--so maybe they would be happy with 2%---I don't know..... One thing I do know, is that we appreciate you guys helping our furloughs, and really---that will not be forgotten.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Merger

UNLESS the company committed that the combined entity Com/ASA would be the SOLE PROVIDER of DCI flying for Delta Air Lines.

That would mean the termination of contracts at Chautauqua, ACA, and Skywest over some set period of time.

Sounds like predatory scope .

 

[Palerider957]

General:

I understand the state of the industry, and that you DAL pilots are being asked for substantial wage reductions. And I know you have put in your time in the Brakillya (as have I). At least you had the thought you might get to a major some day, we are left with the prospect of staying at our current regional/national for the remainder of our careers.

Having said that, we are remiss if we don't work hard to make the compensation and work rules the best they can be. This is a gamble when hard core contract negotiations are afoot.

As for sharing the pain, I would be willing to make the majority of new hires, DAL furloughees--with a caveat that recall be at a rate that Delta Connection could absorb. When the flood gates open up we could put a sizeable number of DAL furloughees back to work.

What do I want/expect out of our new contract:
Pay on par with Comair.
COMPLETE overhaul of reserve system--make is seniority based as it should be.
Possibly duty-rigs
We also need to visit scope (both with DAL and CHQ/SKY)

If we did do a merger with CMR, that would be pretty good icing on the cake.

 

[General Lee]

Palerider,

I hope you get what you want. I just think that Delta will make it tougher for you because of the other guys low balling everyone. They could sell those remaining CR7s to Skywest and have them fly for less--saying it is in their "best interest." Would they do that? I don't know---but look what they did with our 737-800s. The only thing that saves us is that we still, believe it or not, have a no furlough clause and they would have many many more pilots sitting around getting paid to do nothing. Good luck.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Palerider957]

General:

it is a very real risk to take a stand at this time in the industry. I guess someone has to, I hope it's my pilot group. We may well lose some aircraft or flying, then again perhaps we can gain some ground.

Once again, my vote is only one of 1600, and I vote to stand firm.

Losing the 738's is a real concern, NO ONE was happy to see that.

Good luck to you as well.

 

[General Lee]

Sinca3,

I didn't say I agreed with Delta management, I just said I thought that is how they were going to look at this situation. I think you guys are under paid---but we all will probably take some sort of cuts---and maybe that will be factored into your future raise......I hope you get a raise, but a portion of it might be GIVEN to Delta---not Dalpa---in exchange for future growth. That is up to you guys--and other regionals will be watching, ready to take some DCI feed........

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Wats]

Bailout,
That changes things some what from your original post. Not one thin dime will I give in concessions!

 

[surplus1]

3) What should the pilots want in exchange for such a merger?

This is the only one I want to answer -- but I agree with Treme. If the company chooses to merge ASA/Comair in order to reduce redundancies and improve the DCI product I would be willing to entertain the idea of concessions to help the process along IF...

There were an ironclad guarantee providing that all current and future DCI flying will be performed by the new entity, along with a reasonable timeline to transfer the flying back from Chautauqua, ACA, and Skywest.

I'm sure that i'm dreaming.

Thanks for the reply. I understand why you chose not to respond to the other 4 questions.

Unfortunately I must agree with your statement, i.e., "I'm sure that I'm dreaming." and what goes before it. I hate to be negative but I see no possibility that the Company will agree to terminate the advantages it has gained from the diversity of its "regional portfolio". Especially in the light of the decisions made by those other pilot groups (SKYW, CHQ, et al.)

Also, the Company can realize the benefits of merging CMR/ASA at any time and does not need the cooperation of the CMR or ASA pilot groups. Nothing prevents it from doing that. If it does not choose to merge us, obviously someone high enough in management believes that the cost/benefit of not merging outweigs the cost/benefit of a merger. Leverage against labor appears to be the reason. I wish it were not so but I believe that it is.

Like you, I see no material advantage for the pilots to a merger between CMR and ASA that would justify any form of concessions to the current Comair PWA. In that the ASA contract is currently inferior to the CMR contract, there is nothing for ASA to concede. I firmly believe that we should not pay for or attempt to buy, that which benefits the Company and does not benefit us equally, if at all.

Since the management has alleged that the concessions requested amount to appoximately $8 millions per annum, the savings generated by a merger of ASA/CMR would appear to exceed that amount by a wide margin. If that is so, the Company can save far more than we can "concede" simply by acting in its own interests. I would argue that the Company's failure to allow itself these benefits, while asking us for concessions, is indicative of the disingenuous nature of the Company's request.

If they need concessions fine -- Lets see what job security guarantees they can provide in return. Lets see them terminate the contracts of the affiliate carriers.

Job security is a valuable commodity. In normal negotiations we pay for it. It concessionary bargaining, it might be worth paying for as well. However, we must be very careful.

If we could not achieve any job security in a strike that allegedly cost the Company more than $700 millions (their numbers) in 3 months, how can we expect to purchase it now for $8 millions a year? This does not compute.

Does the Company, and by that I mean Delta Air Lines (not Comair) need to reduce its costs? I think the answer is yes.

Is Comair the source of those excessive costs? Given the recently released statistics on CMR cost compared to the other top seven regionals, it would appear the answer is, NO. However, there are at least two Delta affiliates whose numbers don't appear in that equation. One is CHQ and the other is the new SKYW agreement (with respect in particular to the CRJ-700 class of aircraft). Additionally such carriers as EGL, MESA, TSA and the AAA subsidiaries (which were not included) all have compensation packages considerably below the Comair package.

This does NOT mean that Comair cannot compete with them and still make a profit. It just means that CMR, and therefore Delta, could make MORE, if we are paid less. That seems to be the Company's reason for asking. Delta is making a profit from our operation. Delta would like to make a bigger profit. No business misses and opportunity to get more. That the "more" may come on the backs of the non-executive employees has never been a factor in the minds of the Executives.

Additionally, the Delta pilots have indicated that they will resist concessions unless "every one else" gives concessions. Currently, that operation is a huge drain on the Company and the disparity between the Delta pilots compensation package and that of American, AAA, UAL, NWA and CAL (not to mention JBlue and AirTran) is enormous, compared to the disparity between Comair and SKYW or CHQ. Nevertheless, the squeaky door gets the oil, especially when its the biggest door in the house. Delta management will do what it can to encourage concessions from the Delta pilots. I have little doubt that the request for concessions at Comair is directly related to that.

I don't mind saying that I am not among those who think we should concede anything merely because another pilot group thinks that we should.

(Job security is always a hot-button with newhires and members of the frequent-furlough club. I'm both.)

Job securtity should be a hot button. I believe that every senior Comair pilot should do whatever is needed to secure as much job security as possible for our junior pilots. I also believe that we should protect their already low pay to the extent possible.

That doesn't mean that we should give away the farm or any part of it in fear of losing our security. However, it does mean that if sacrifices do have to be made, we must protect our junior pilots and those of us more able to absorb the impact should do so in preference to those less able. We have done so in the past and I sincerely hope we will never change that. What is important is the security of ALL, not just those that came before some date on a calendar. That may be different from the practice of other groups. If so, it is a difference that we do well to preserve.

I was one of the people that encouraged you to come here. I am just as committed to protecting your interests as a junior member of our group as I am to protecting my own interests. I trust and believe that a majority of my fellow CMR pilots are of the same mind.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I wish the senior pilots at Delta cared about the junior ones as much as you do for yours. That is the way it should be, and a lot of our pilots cannot see that.

As far as the Comair concessions, I am glad that you see that it really isn't Dalpa who is after your cuts (even with the "share the pain" policy)--as much as it is that Delta managment wants to compare you to CHQ and Skywest. They see that those carriers are willing to go for growth over pay, and they want to see if you will play the game too. I know that Dalpa wants everyone to "share the pain", and that would include you---but I think Delta managment would want more from you than Dalpa. (Dalpa never gave a $$$$$number---just a portion (?) of the pain....) I am also sure that the Dalpa pilots would take larger cuts than Comair or ASA pilots under that so called plan.

Bye Bye--General Lee