Anybody else receive a phone call survey asking questions about how do you think the contract talks are going right now? what are you looking for in the new contract? what is important to you? what are your strike issues? etc,. But the last 10 minutes of the survey were strickly questions about . how you feel about a merger with Comair? issues? concerns? etc. Very interesting indeed!
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knightflyer
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A merger with Comair would probably mean the last representations of George and John would be banished to line flying, or retirement. ASA management could use a little of what Comair has. Regardless of the scope and ALPA issues, anything that resulted in better operational performance at ASA would be welcome.
I won't endorse any reductions in pay but I would be delighted to see the gang of red necks known as our current mgmt sent packing.
Skip, Drew, Nelson, Chromer etc.
I wonder if the time that Drew and Nelson spent in the crew lounge this week spouting concessions was actually their attempt at saving their own jobs ?????
Skip, Drew, Nelson, Chromer etc.
I wonder if the time that Drew and Nelson spent in the crew lounge this week spouting concessions was actually their attempt at saving their own jobs ?????
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StaySeated
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DOH
50 from the bottom would be about a Nov 4th class date of 2002.
Last class of 20 was hired Jan 2nd 03.
I heard from a person in the GO in ATL that we actually will be understaffed the first part of 2004.
This person says we are getting more crj200's in addition to the 15 crj700's.
I know this has not been indicated before and this is the first time I have heard this too, so I will believe it when I see it.
Just wanted to see if anyone else had heard this in training around the Redroof?
50 from the bottom would be about a Nov 4th class date of 2002.
Last class of 20 was hired Jan 2nd 03.
I heard from a person in the GO in ATL that we actually will be understaffed the first part of 2004.
This person says we are getting more crj200's in addition to the 15 crj700's.
I know this has not been indicated before and this is the first time I have heard this too, so I will believe it when I see it.
Just wanted to see if anyone else had heard this in training around the Redroof?
rjcapt-
Can you mention any specifics of what Nelson and Chromer had to say about concessions? Was this in ATL? I spent hours in DFW on Monday listening to Drew try his best to not answer any questions. Nelson and Chromer were there lurking and smirking, but they didn't have anything to say. I agree with you, having those guys gone would be one of the single best things that could happen to ASA. It's sad that the stupidest things I've ever had anyone tell me about flying have come from our Chief Pilots.
Can you mention any specifics of what Nelson and Chromer had to say about concessions? Was this in ATL? I spent hours in DFW on Monday listening to Drew try his best to not answer any questions. Nelson and Chromer were there lurking and smirking, but they didn't have anything to say. I agree with you, having those guys gone would be one of the single best things that could happen to ASA. It's sad that the stupidest things I've ever had anyone tell me about flying have come from our Chief Pilots.
Merger
An ASA/Comair merger would be absolutely a USELESS waste of negotiating capital...
(paying for something that in and of itself will save the company millions by reducing redundancies...
UNLESS the company committed that the combined entity Com/ASA would be the SOLE PROVIDER of DCI flying for Delta Air Lines.
That would mean the termination of contracts at Chautauqua, ACA, and Skywest over some set period of time.
To merge for any other reason would be, in my opinion, foolish. A bigger wholly-owned will NOT prevent the whipsaw. The elimination of the contract feed might help...
An ASA/Comair merger would be absolutely a USELESS waste of negotiating capital...
(paying for something that in and of itself will save the company millions by reducing redundancies...
UNLESS the company committed that the combined entity Com/ASA would be the SOLE PROVIDER of DCI flying for Delta Air Lines.
That would mean the termination of contracts at Chautauqua, ACA, and Skywest over some set period of time.
To merge for any other reason would be, in my opinion, foolish. A bigger wholly-owned will NOT prevent the whipsaw. The elimination of the contract feed might help...
Palerider957
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Wow, open talk of a merger with Comair? I really like the idea of merging, but I won't (can't) take a pay cut to do it.
The point of reducing redundancy is a good one, canning half of the management and reducing support should save Mama D a lot of cash.
I'd be willing to take a pay scale on par with Comair, but not less. The containment of DCI flying to WO's is also pretty important.
Comair is already our brother (sister) airline, both pilot groups have balls and would probably work well together.
The point of reducing redundancy is a good one, canning half of the management and reducing support should save Mama D a lot of cash.
I'd be willing to take a pay scale on par with Comair, but not less. The containment of DCI flying to WO's is also pretty important.
Comair is already our brother (sister) airline, both pilot groups have balls and would probably work well together.
General Lee
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RJCAP,
It just seems to me that Delta wouldn't allow a merger without paycuts. Why would they allow the two of you to get bigger and more powerful, without reducing the pay? They already know that Chataqua and Skywest will do it for less, and they are concerned with the $$$$ side right now. I also think that the two of you should merge---which would cut down on redundencies and allow you more choices of bases etc. But, I doubt they would give you all of the DCI flying until you could get costs down to Chataqua's or Skywest's. JMO.
Bye Bye--General Lee
It just seems to me that Delta wouldn't allow a merger without paycuts. Why would they allow the two of you to get bigger and more powerful, without reducing the pay? They already know that Chataqua and Skywest will do it for less, and they are concerned with the $$$$ side right now. I also think that the two of you should merge---which would cut down on redundencies and allow you more choices of bases etc. But, I doubt they would give you all of the DCI flying until you could get costs down to Chataqua's or Skywest's. JMO.
Bye Bye--General Lee
FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
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General Lee
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Furloughedagain,
You probably are right. But, that will affect you as well--with the percentages. As long as we grow, you can too. If you think we aren't going to give in when it comes to wages, I think you are wrong. We all know that the company needs some funds right now, and as long as they deal with us fairly, it probably will be done. But, we are going to get some more flying regardless, since we now have sent another thing to arbitration--the Codeshare and INTL percentages---they are not following the rules again. So, we will either gain some INTL flying, or they will drop it. (We all know that is where we really make money---little competition) And, we are NO WAY in the financial shape of UAL or USAir--and we are 80% non-union--giving us a better advantage when it comes to manditory pay cuts. We'll do fine---our problems are not only because of the pilot costs. How about we start to advertise? I don't see any billboards outside of ATL. JMO.
Bye bye--General Lee 
You probably are right. But, that will affect you as well--with the percentages. As long as we grow, you can too. If you think we aren't going to give in when it comes to wages, I think you are wrong. We all know that the company needs some funds right now, and as long as they deal with us fairly, it probably will be done. But, we are going to get some more flying regardless, since we now have sent another thing to arbitration--the Codeshare and INTL percentages---they are not following the rules again. So, we will either gain some INTL flying, or they will drop it. (We all know that is where we really make money---little competition) And, we are NO WAY in the financial shape of UAL or USAir--and we are 80% non-union--giving us a better advantage when it comes to manditory pay cuts. We'll do fine---our problems are not only because of the pilot costs. How about we start to advertise? I don't see any billboards outside of ATL. JMO.
Bye bye--General Lee
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In the opinion of you guys, any of you,
1) What are the advantages for the pilots of a merger between CMR and ASA?
2) What are the disadvantages for the pilots of a merger between CMR and ASA?
3) What should the pilots want in exchange for such a merger?
4) What should the pilots give in exchange for such a merger? Who should give it, CMR pilots or ASA pilots?
5) Why would the Company agree to such a merger when the Company already has the power to merge CMR/ASA or DLA/CMR/ASA whenever they feel like it?
1) What are the advantages for the pilots of a merger between CMR and ASA?
2) What are the disadvantages for the pilots of a merger between CMR and ASA?
3) What should the pilots want in exchange for such a merger?
4) What should the pilots give in exchange for such a merger? Who should give it, CMR pilots or ASA pilots?
5) Why would the Company agree to such a merger when the Company already has the power to merge CMR/ASA or DLA/CMR/ASA whenever they feel like it?
FurloughedAgain
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3) What should the pilots want in exchange for such a merger?
This is the only one I want to answer -- but I agree with Treme. If the company chooses to merge ASA/Comair in order to reduce redundancies and improve the DCI product I would be willing to entertain the idea of concessions to help the process along IF...
There were an ironclad guarantee providing that all current and future DCI flying will be performed by the new entity, along with a reasonable timeline to transfer the flying back from Chautauqua, ACA, and Skywest.
I'm sure that i'm dreaming.
My point is that I see every advantage for the company to seek the combination -- but very little advantage for the pilot group. It seems foolish to offer concessions for a merger which in and of-itself will save the company millions!
If they need concessions fine -- Lets see what job security guarantees they can provide in return. Lets see them terminate the contracts of the affiliate carriers.
Just My Opinion.
(Job security is always a hot-button with newhires and members of the frequent-furlough club. I'm both.)
This is the only one I want to answer -- but I agree with Treme. If the company chooses to merge ASA/Comair in order to reduce redundancies and improve the DCI product I would be willing to entertain the idea of concessions to help the process along IF...
There were an ironclad guarantee providing that all current and future DCI flying will be performed by the new entity, along with a reasonable timeline to transfer the flying back from Chautauqua, ACA, and Skywest.
I'm sure that i'm dreaming.
My point is that I see every advantage for the company to seek the combination -- but very little advantage for the pilot group. It seems foolish to offer concessions for a merger which in and of-itself will save the company millions!
If they need concessions fine -- Lets see what job security guarantees they can provide in return. Lets see them terminate the contracts of the affiliate carriers.
Just My Opinion.
(Job security is always a hot-button with newhires and members of the frequent-furlough club. I'm both.)
Palerider957
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Furloughedagain:
My brother, please don't start the concessions for perks mantra. This is a fools game that management has played well, and pilot groups have suffered under its rein.
I do support the merger of ASA/Comair, but there is NO reason for us to take a pay cut to effect this. This is not a contractual gain, like crew meals, or duty rigs-it's a serious restructuring of the company. Management has a lot to gain in terms of efficiency, and costs reduction. We can gain in that we would have ONE contract, and more options in terms of flying we could do and domiciles to choose from.
I share your pain and concern, re: job security. I know you must feel like you are hanging on by your fingernails, but there is NO reason for us to take a pay cut, for any reason--NONE.
Again, I support the idea of a merger, but I will NOT vote for any TA that involves pay cuts. I'm just one vote of 1600, but that's where I come out.
My brother, please don't start the concessions for perks mantra. This is a fools game that management has played well, and pilot groups have suffered under its rein.
I do support the merger of ASA/Comair, but there is NO reason for us to take a pay cut to effect this. This is not a contractual gain, like crew meals, or duty rigs-it's a serious restructuring of the company. Management has a lot to gain in terms of efficiency, and costs reduction. We can gain in that we would have ONE contract, and more options in terms of flying we could do and domiciles to choose from.
I share your pain and concern, re: job security. I know you must feel like you are hanging on by your fingernails, but there is NO reason for us to take a pay cut, for any reason--NONE.
Again, I support the idea of a merger, but I will NOT vote for any TA that involves pay cuts. I'm just one vote of 1600, but that's where I come out.
General Lee
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Palerider,
That's not what Delta management sees. They see everyone else taking growth for paycuts. Look at what Skywest did---offering to fly up to 99 seat aircraft for 50 seat wages. They received huge growth from United after doing that.
Also, your remarks about not having to take paycuts because you were profitible are flawed. Where do you think most of the profits were made and then subsequently been burned in the last two years? Answer: mainline profits in the late '90s. Where do you think management got the money to buy all of your RJs and the current ones on order? Mainline profits from the late '90s. Your current profits have helped us in the last couple of years, but that was after our profits were burned up. If it wasn't for those billions, we would have sunk a year ago. We are all a part of one large corporation--and it is time to "share the pain." Everyone baby, and we will contribute too---no doubt.
Bye Bye--General Lee
That's not what Delta management sees. They see everyone else taking growth for paycuts. Look at what Skywest did---offering to fly up to 99 seat aircraft for 50 seat wages. They received huge growth from United after doing that.
Also, your remarks about not having to take paycuts because you were profitible are flawed. Where do you think most of the profits were made and then subsequently been burned in the last two years? Answer: mainline profits in the late '90s. Where do you think management got the money to buy all of your RJs and the current ones on order? Mainline profits from the late '90s. Your current profits have helped us in the last couple of years, but that was after our profits were burned up. If it wasn't for those billions, we would have sunk a year ago. We are all a part of one large corporation--and it is time to "share the pain." Everyone baby, and we will contribute too---no doubt.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Palerider957
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General:
I wouldn't pretent to have the depth of knowlege about the industry that you do. And I appreciate your dedication to your pilot group.
For our position: All ASA/Comair pilots have is each other, NO ONE else is looking out for us. It's up to us to make the best deal we can under tough circumstances. Please understand that no matter how much we discuss things in this forum, fundamentally ASA/CMR and DAL pilots will have some disagreements--not readily resolved. This is not a sign of disrespect, it's simply a matter of "standing where you sit."
We (especially ASA) are underpaid for the work and equipment we operate, and the routes we fly. We are not some half-assed operation, flying bugsmashers only to MCN, and VLD 5 times a day. We are both (ASA/CMR) truly National airlines, flying state of the art equipment, on par with the most professional airlines in the world.
At this time our company is making money consistantly (ASA has NEVER lost money--even pre Delta buyout), we have a right to expect that for our efforts, a resonable amount of compensation should be offered, combined with a quality and respectful contract. Right now we have neither.
You can hit us with a pile of statistics, but once again, I won't vote for any TA that includes concessions, no sir.
Let us agree to disagree.
I wouldn't pretent to have the depth of knowlege about the industry that you do. And I appreciate your dedication to your pilot group.
For our position: All ASA/Comair pilots have is each other, NO ONE else is looking out for us. It's up to us to make the best deal we can under tough circumstances. Please understand that no matter how much we discuss things in this forum, fundamentally ASA/CMR and DAL pilots will have some disagreements--not readily resolved. This is not a sign of disrespect, it's simply a matter of "standing where you sit."
We (especially ASA) are underpaid for the work and equipment we operate, and the routes we fly. We are not some half-assed operation, flying bugsmashers only to MCN, and VLD 5 times a day. We are both (ASA/CMR) truly National airlines, flying state of the art equipment, on par with the most professional airlines in the world.
At this time our company is making money consistantly (ASA has NEVER lost money--even pre Delta buyout), we have a right to expect that for our efforts, a resonable amount of compensation should be offered, combined with a quality and respectful contract. Right now we have neither.
You can hit us with a pile of statistics, but once again, I won't vote for any TA that includes concessions, no sir.
Let us agree to disagree.
General Lee said:Palerider,
That's not what Delta management sees. They see everyone else taking growth for paycuts. Look at what Skywest did---offering to fly up to 99 seat aircraft for 50 seat wages. They received huge growth from United after doing that.
Also, your remarks about not having to take paycuts because you were profitible are flawed. Where do you think most of the profits were made and then subsequently been burned in the last two years? Answer: mainline profits in the late '90s. Where do you think management got the money to buy all of your RJs and the current ones on order? Mainline profits from the late '90s. Your current profits have helped us in the last couple of years, but that was after our profits were burned up. If it wasn't for those billions, we would have sunk a year ago. We are all a part of one large corporation--and it is time to "share the pain." Everyone baby, and we will contribute too---no doubt.
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee,
I have been trolling these boards for the better part of 4 years now! I rarely respond to post no matter how bad or aggrevating they may be.
I must ask you though, are "regional pilots" paid what they are worth? Do you think that we are compensated fairly for the work we do, which by the way is much more than any main line pilot out there! Am I jealous or even mad at this fact? H3LL no, I think it is great that you were able to negotiate what you have. I strongly believe that you get what you negotiate. I think it is in bad taste to ask anyone that is already under compensated to take or even consider pay cuts!!(Especially those in contract negotiations)
Do you think only "main line" pilots are allowed to get the type of compensationyou currently enjoy? I surely hope not! I think in all reality that you could care less what we get paid, but b/c of the bad times the industry is in you think it only fair that all pilots take pay cuts b/c YOU might have too. Yes, we fly under the DAL banner! Yes we are owned by DAL! You only seem to realize these facts when it benefits you and only then. I am tired of that mind set from you or any other pilot that might be of the same opinion.
I'm off my box now, "disclaimer"....the content of this post is not meant to offend anyone including the General. The views expressed are of my own opinion eminating from my tiny brain.
I'm tired and need a drink...long 3 day trip!
Cheers
Sinca3
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General Lee
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Palerider,
Believe me, I do not disagree with you that you deserve more money and more respect. I flew for the regionals--E120s---and I have told more than one 727FO (when I was the FE) when they were saying something not nice about the Brasilia or CRJ in front of us for takeoff---that they shoud shut up and that you guys work a lot harder than they do.....
What I think I was saying is that Delta is "going for it" now. They know that other airlines (ie Skywest) are going for growth over pay. They know they have an opening to ask for this, and really they are doing it through the back door to you---by requesting Comair to take cuts. It doesn't matter whether or not I agree with them (I don't)----they see an opportunity. They will go for it.
Now, they also see an opportunity to ask us for cuts too, and we will probably give some to them, but we have more leverage. Dalpa can allow more 70 seaters for a price, and we can also tell them to shove it and we'll finally get a new contract in 2007 (after two long years of negotiating). But, they want and probably need the money now--and we know that. I know that we have said that we want everyone to "share the pain"--and that doesn't sound fair to you. Well, I know that sucks, and we never said "how much"--so maybe they would be happy with 2%---I don't know..... One thing I do know, is that we appreciate you guys helping our furloughs, and really---that will not be forgotten.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Believe me, I do not disagree with you that you deserve more money and more respect. I flew for the regionals--E120s---and I have told more than one 727FO (when I was the FE) when they were saying something not nice about the Brasilia or CRJ in front of us for takeoff---that they shoud shut up and that you guys work a lot harder than they do.....
What I think I was saying is that Delta is "going for it" now. They know that other airlines (ie Skywest) are going for growth over pay. They know they have an opening to ask for this, and really they are doing it through the back door to you---by requesting Comair to take cuts. It doesn't matter whether or not I agree with them (I don't)----they see an opportunity. They will go for it.
Now, they also see an opportunity to ask us for cuts too, and we will probably give some to them, but we have more leverage. Dalpa can allow more 70 seaters for a price, and we can also tell them to shove it and we'll finally get a new contract in 2007 (after two long years of negotiating). But, they want and probably need the money now--and we know that. I know that we have said that we want everyone to "share the pain"--and that doesn't sound fair to you. Well, I know that sucks, and we never said "how much"--so maybe they would be happy with 2%---I don't know..... One thing I do know, is that we appreciate you guys helping our furloughs, and really---that will not be forgotten.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Palerider957
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General:
I understand the state of the industry, and that you DAL pilots are being asked for substantial wage reductions. And I know you have put in your time in the Brakillya (as have I). At least you had the thought you might get to a major some day, we are left with the prospect of staying at our current regional/national for the remainder of our careers.
Having said that, we are remiss if we don't work hard to make the compensation and work rules the best they can be. This is a gamble when hard core contract negotiations are afoot.
As for sharing the pain, I would be willing to make the majority of new hires, DAL furloughees--with a caveat that recall be at a rate that Delta Connection could absorb. When the flood gates open up we could put a sizeable number of DAL furloughees back to work.
What do I want/expect out of our new contract:
Pay on par with Comair.
COMPLETE overhaul of reserve system--make is seniority based as it should be.
Possibly duty-rigs
We also need to visit scope (both with DAL and CHQ/SKY)
If we did do a merger with CMR, that would be pretty good icing on the cake.
I understand the state of the industry, and that you DAL pilots are being asked for substantial wage reductions. And I know you have put in your time in the Brakillya (as have I). At least you had the thought you might get to a major some day, we are left with the prospect of staying at our current regional/national for the remainder of our careers.
Having said that, we are remiss if we don't work hard to make the compensation and work rules the best they can be. This is a gamble when hard core contract negotiations are afoot.
As for sharing the pain, I would be willing to make the majority of new hires, DAL furloughees--with a caveat that recall be at a rate that Delta Connection could absorb. When the flood gates open up we could put a sizeable number of DAL furloughees back to work.
What do I want/expect out of our new contract:
Pay on par with Comair.
COMPLETE overhaul of reserve system--make is seniority based as it should be.
Possibly duty-rigs
We also need to visit scope (both with DAL and CHQ/SKY)
If we did do a merger with CMR, that would be pretty good icing on the cake.
General Lee
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Palerider,
I hope you get what you want. I just think that Delta will make it tougher for you because of the other guys low balling everyone. They could sell those remaining CR7s to Skywest and have them fly for less--saying it is in their "best interest." Would they do that? I don't know---but look what they did with our 737-800s. The only thing that saves us is that we still, believe it or not, have a no furlough clause and they would have many many more pilots sitting around getting paid to do nothing. Good luck.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I hope you get what you want. I just think that Delta will make it tougher for you because of the other guys low balling everyone. They could sell those remaining CR7s to Skywest and have them fly for less--saying it is in their "best interest." Would they do that? I don't know---but look what they did with our 737-800s. The only thing that saves us is that we still, believe it or not, have a no furlough clause and they would have many many more pilots sitting around getting paid to do nothing. Good luck.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Palerider957
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General:
it is a very real risk to take a stand at this time in the industry. I guess someone has to, I hope it's my pilot group. We may well lose some aircraft or flying, then again perhaps we can gain some ground.
Once again, my vote is only one of 1600, and I vote to stand firm.
Losing the 738's is a real concern, NO ONE was happy to see that.
Good luck to you as well.
it is a very real risk to take a stand at this time in the industry. I guess someone has to, I hope it's my pilot group. We may well lose some aircraft or flying, then again perhaps we can gain some ground.
Once again, my vote is only one of 1600, and I vote to stand firm.
Losing the 738's is a real concern, NO ONE was happy to see that.
Good luck to you as well.
General Lee
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Sinca3,
I didn't say I agreed with Delta management, I just said I thought that is how they were going to look at this situation. I think you guys are under paid---but we all will probably take some sort of cuts---and maybe that will be factored into your future raise......I hope you get a raise, but a portion of it might be GIVEN to Delta---not Dalpa---in exchange for future growth. That is up to you guys--and other regionals will be watching, ready to take some DCI feed........
Bye Bye--General Lee
I didn't say I agreed with Delta management, I just said I thought that is how they were going to look at this situation. I think you guys are under paid---but we all will probably take some sort of cuts---and maybe that will be factored into your future raise......I hope you get a raise, but a portion of it might be GIVEN to Delta---not Dalpa---in exchange for future growth. That is up to you guys--and other regionals will be watching, ready to take some DCI feed........
Bye Bye--General Lee
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