ASA December Res Lines

[Medeco]

Trips are bad?!? How so? The trips are highly productive with high credit, which allows more days off. Last time you were complaining about low credit trips and high min credit threshold.

And a TON of reduced rest overnights

 

[ASA_Aviator]

And a TON of reduced rest overnights

Pick your poison. Do you want more days off, or 32 hour overnights?

 

[CheeseHead13]

And a TON of reduced rest overnights

You know what to do. If you're tired, then grow a pair and call in fatigued. Then we will see how cost effective all these reduced rest overnights are.

 

[crj567]

Pick your poison. Do you want more days off, or 32 hour overnights?

How do you propose to get more days off when you still can't get to the min threshold without 4 trips anyhow?

-At least some of the XJET guys are actually looking at our system and attempting to negotiate for better. For exapmle, they seem to understand that the PBS software is only part of the picture. Unless we get control over pairing construction, our system will never get better.

Our PBS has a whole bunch of flaws, and we could have done a lot better. Hopefully XJET will use whatever leverage we have to fix some of these "oversights." Our guys sure as hell won't do anything but provide excuse after excuse for poorer and poorer agreements.

 

[79%N1]

The ASA crj200 schedules have 7 leg days and reduced rest because of the stage lengths it flies because of Delta's policys......not because of pbs or pairing software. We couldn't build 20 hour plus trips without 6 and 7 leg days either because we can't make 2 hour flights when none exist. We used to fly to ICT, OKC, DSM, HPN, PVD, ARE, etc. Now we don't. XJT has long stage lengths. That is why they can have less legs for more block, NOT because of how we bid our schedules!

 

[sweptback]

This is PRECISELY why I chose to use the word "systems" with an S at the end which makes it plural. It was referencing not only the pairing generator but ALSO the line construction. Together they were shown to be better than your PBS.

Does your contract specifically reference using the Ad-Opt pairing generator? Because if not, then what's to stop the company from changing if they find something "better"?

We've been through three or so pairing generators in the time I've been here. Personally I don't think the actual software differs much -- I think it depends more on the choices made while developing the pairings (such as eliminating soft time and short overnights) and the amount of training that the pilots/employees get for the software program. Pilots and management often disagree on what a productive pairing is, anyway.

 

[dojetdriver]

Yay! 8 and 7 legs a day! woohoo!

fck that!

As mentioned, the XJT CBA only allows for 6 a day. Unless the duty period exists in a time period consisting of redeye flying.

Do you know the difference between a pair generator and PBS?

A pair generator is something that would allow testicles to drop, hence having a pair when it's done. Which is something the guys jumping on the cost competitive fear grenade need, a pair generator. I'll bet the person in the avatar of your other sign in has a pair.

Nope, 5 max stupid,

Not sure what that's in reference to, XJT allows 6.

-At least some of the XJET guys are actually looking at our system and attempting to negotiate for better. For exapmle, they seem to understand that the PBS software is only part of the picture. Unless we get control over pairing construction, our system will never get better.

Our PBS has a whole bunch of flaws, and we could have done a lot better. Hopefully XJET will use whatever leverage we have to fix some of these "oversights." Our guys sure as hell won't do anything but provide excuse after excuse for poorer and poorer agreements.

That would be true. The XJT PBS committee is looking into ALL the PBS software systems out there so as to explore every option. Shame that's not a 2 way street. In other words, it'd be nice if the ASA guys were taking a look at the XJT system.

XJT has long stage lengths. That is why they can have less legs for more block, NOT because of how we bid our schedules!

Depends on which domicile you're talking about. Some are primarily short, some are long, some are a mix.

 

[79%N1]

The reason ASA guys aren't much interested in XJTs line bid system IMHO is simple. Aside from the fact that's it's nice to set all your parameters and basically pull out the schedule you want from the available pairings instead of combing through hundreds of lines looking for the ones that contain hopefully most of the things you want is.....the basic thing you like best is your ability to dump all the crap in that line you dont want, and then rebuild your schedule the way you want (which is what we aim to do initially with PBS) from a huge pot of open time. But, we know how your new management team works here. They are all about restricting your ability to control things. They will restrict your (our) ability to swap with low coverage, red arrows, restricted days, etc. They will eliminate the open time pot, whatever it takes to limit the high cost of giving more people more days off by trading 14 days off for a 15 day off schedule.. This is how they work. We've seen it. So all we're left with is line bidding, which in many peoples opinion is inferior to the PBS bidding process.

We all get the stuff about the need for less pilots and stuff and can agree on those points. I just have a hard time believing Brad and Jerry will ever agree to your swapping, dropping, LIW's and better day stuff. It's not in their DNA. If they do agree to that and it's the collective will of the bunch to go with that, then great. I'm all ears. I'll take the 20% raise while we are at it.

 

[nerjdriver]

The reason ASA guys aren't much interested in XJTs line bid system IMHO is simple. Aside from the fact that's it's nice to set all your parameters and basically pull out the schedule you want from the available pairings instead of combing through hundreds of lines looking for the ones that contain hopefully most of the things you want is.....the basic thing you like best is your ability to dump all the crap in that line you dont want, and then rebuild your schedule the way you want (which is what we aim to do initially with PBS) from a huge pot of open time. But, we know how your new management team works here. They are all about restricting your ability to control things. They will restrict your (our) ability to swap with low coverage, red arrows, restricted days, etc. They will eliminate the open time pot, whatever it takes to limit the high cost of giving more people more days off by trading 14 days off for a 15 day off schedule.. This is how they work. We've seen it. So all we're left with is line bidding, which in many peoples opinion is inferior to the PBS bidding process.

We all get the stuff about the need for less pilots and stuff and can agree on those points. I just have a hard time believing Brad and Jerry will ever agree to your swapping, dropping, LIW's and better day stuff. It's not in their DNA. If they do agree to that and it's the collective will of the bunch to go with that, then great. I'm all ears. I'll take the 20% raise while we are at it.

You're right it is very simple. THEY ARE NOT NEGOTIATING IN GOOD FAITH!

 

[777forever]

Swap this, swap that, ILIW, SLIW, swap etc etc, sounds like a bunch of wasted time spent in front of the computer while ASA pilots get what they want from the start. No thanks. We'll take your pairing generator though.

 

[Nevets]

The reason ASA guys aren't much interested in XJTs line bid system IMHO is simple. Aside from the fact that's it's nice to set all your parameters and basically pull out the schedule you want from the available pairings instead of combing through hundreds of lines looking for the ones that contain hopefully most of the things you want is.....the basic thing you like best is your ability to dump all the crap in that line you dont want, and then rebuild your schedule the way you want (which is what we aim to do initially with PBS) from a huge pot of open time. But, we know how your new management team works here. They are all about restricting your ability to control things. They will restrict your (our) ability to swap with low coverage, red arrows, restricted days, etc. They will eliminate the open time pot, whatever it takes to limit the high cost of giving more people more days off by trading 14 days off for a 15 day off schedule.. This is how they work. We've seen it. So all we're left with is line bidding, which in many peoples opinion is inferior to the PBS bidding process.

We all get the stuff about the need for less pilots and stuff and can agree on those points. I just have a hard time believing Brad and Jerry will ever agree to your swapping, dropping, LIW's and better day stuff. It's not in their DNA. If they do agree to that and it's the collective will of the bunch to go with that, then great. I'm all ears. I'll take the 20% raise while we are at it.

But their already know how your management team works. They have been forced to abide by our ability to control things: swap to low coverage days (bad day worse day trades), open time, dropping, LIWs, etc. Every time they've tried to erode any part of our contract, we've fought them and won.

You argument is baseless because the facts show that they will abide by a well written contract if they are fought from the smallest most insignificant thing (online check in) to the big things.

BH and CT even told our MEC that they didn't know how high maintenance our pilot group would be. We're slowly training them.

By the way, I don't necessarily feel PBS is bad. It's just different. From what I've been told though is that your PBS and work rules would be a concession to us. I've also been told that there is a better PBS out there that is worth taking a look at. It's too bad that your guys aren't even open to looking at different vendors, let alone our line bidding and work rules.

 

[79%N1]

What I'm saying is they will want to get rid of those contract provisions in the contract negotiations. (or they will use their bag of tricks to circumvent them) then they won't exist to fight over. My speculation is that they will offer line bidding without all the swapping provisions - much like ASA used to have.

 

[dojetdriver]

Swap this, swap that, ILIW, SLIW, swap etc etc, sounds like a bunch of wasted time spent in front of the computer while ASA pilots get what they want from the start. No thanks. We'll take your pairing generator though.

Translation;

"Thank you ExpressJet for your pairing generator. However, some of us on the ASA side will continue to remain ignorant an uninformed about anything else you have to offer"

So lets get this straight. The pairing generator creates more pilot efficient parings. Which means less pilots to cover the flying, with means MORE pilots on reserve. Hmmmm, lets see. It's funny, because the PBS cheerleaders like to brag about how the PBS system has LESS pilots on reserve.

It's too bad that your guys aren't even open to looking at different vendors, let alone our line bidding and work rules.

Damn right brotha'

What I'm saying is they will want to get rid of those contract provisions in the contract negotiations. (or they will use their bag of tricks to circumvent them) then they won't exist to fight over. My speculation is that they will offer line bidding without all the swapping provisions - much like ASA used to have.

=concession, which = NO vote. Plain and simple.

Let them keep operating the two separate. I'm pretty sure it's a well beaten horse. Many on the XJT side will be fine with that.

 

[79%N1]

Would you strike over ILIW?

 

[Freebrd]

Swap this, swap that, ILIW, SLIW, swap etc etc, sounds like a bunch of wasted time spent in front of the computer while ASA pilots get what they want from the start. No thanks. We'll take your pairing generator though.

777=clueless

 

[Freebrd]

Would you strike over ILIW?

ain't no strike gonna happen

 

[dojetdriver]

Would you strike over keeping the ASA PBS language and NOT even considering the XJT line bid/SLIW/ILIW/BD-WD trading system?

This is fun asking silly questions!!!!!!

 

[FightingIrish]

BH and CT even told our MEC that they didn't know how high maintenance our pilot group would be. We're slowly training them.

BH and CT have also been fully briefed on the dispute between our 2 MECs and on the fact that our MEC is willing to consider being operated separately. It has been made clear that your MEC is on it's own.

 

[Nevets]

What I'm saying is they will want to get rid of those contract provisions in the contract negotiations. (or they will use their bag of tricks to circumvent them) then they won't exist to fight over. My speculation is that they will offer line bidding without all the swapping provisions - much like ASA used to have.

I guess if we are stupid enough to ratify a contract that concedes the language we have in our existing contract, you would be right. I see us operating separate before that happens though. Still, the fact is that they've tried they're bag of tricks and we fight them tooth and nail on the smallest of smallest things. We're holding up ok so far.

BH and CT have also been fully briefed on the dispute between our 2 MECs and on the fact that our MEC is willing to consider being operated separately. It has been made clear that your MEC is on it's own.

The dispute? You mean the unwillingness of your MEC to even consider a different PBS vendor or to consider anything else other than tweaking your current PBS/work rules? I don't know but if what you say is true and your MEC is working with management to leverage themselves against, coerce, or work against 66% of the pilots in contract negatiations, then we have bigger problems than your MEC just being stubborn. Personally, I'm ok with being on our own separate operations. We were not asked this time if we wanted to be bought and many of us wanted to be on our own anyways considering what they wanted to do to us (exactly what is happening now). If this place shuts its doors today, I'll land on my feet.

 

[FightingIrish]

The dispute? You mean the unwillingness of your MEC to even consider a different PBS vendor or to consider anything else other than tweaking your current PBS/work rules?

Our PBS is better than Delta's or Continentals. It's the best PBS system in the industry. The ASA's pilots want to keep their current PBS system. The ASA's pilots don't want to become the next Comair. Your MEC is still living in the past and is very inexperienced. Your MEC is not managing expectations which is a part of leadership.

I don't know but if what you say is true and your MEC is working with management to leverage themselves against, coerce, or work against 66% of the pilots in contract negatiations, then we have bigger problems than your MEC just being stubborn.

Our MEC is representing OUR pilots. They aren't "working against 66% of the pilots". We have two very different pilot groups. One has realistic expectations based on market realities. One doesn't. We do have a big problem, but it isn't the ASA MEC. Trust when I say that management is well aware of the differences.

Personally, I'm ok with being on our own separate operations. We were not asked this time if we wanted to be bought and many of us wanted to be on our own anyways considering what they wanted to do to us (exactly what is happening now). If this place shuts its doors today, I'll land on my feet.

It is that very "shut the doors" mentality that won't fly on this side of the fence. I say stay separate also and shut down your side since so many of you seem to be happy with that. Why would you guys care if we shut down the xjt side?