ASA CR7 OPERATING COSTS VS. SKYW and COMAIR

[gator_hater]

Operating profit is not Total net profit. Since you guys can't seem to get that through your head you will never understand how out of whack ASA ALPA is. 13.1% operating profit could easily equate to a 5% real profit. A company that make 5-6% has bigger fish to fry staying afloat than handing out 17% pay raises. If you don't see that then you have no business discussing finances.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2, you may be right about that but where did you get that number about the $100 mil loss last year?

Honest question, just asking

It was in the Delta BanKruptcy filing and the local Cinci rag.

Comair judge: Keep talking
Both arguments questioned
BY JAMES PILCHER | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER
NEW YORK - The judge who has to decide whether to reject Comair's contract with its flight attendants expressed strong skepticism Friday over the cases of both management and the union - a move possibly intended to push both sides to a settlement.
U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Adlai Hardin has until Monday to decide whether the company can reject its contract with its nearly 1,000-member flight-attendant union and impose cuts worth $8.9 million annually.
He did not indicate when he would rule, but instead urged both sides to keep talking. Hardin has the discretion to extend the deadline.
If the contract is voided and new rules imposed, a strike is likely, the local branch of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters has said.
The company has warned that without the cuts, and without the related concessions from its other unions that are linked to a flight attendant deal, it will no longer be competitive and could eventually liquidate.
Comair, a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines, operates the most flights at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, Delta's second-largest hub.
The Erlanger-based regional subsidiary was included in Delta's bankruptcy filing in September. Comair has said it lost $120 million in 2005, a figure that included Delta's costs for Comair. It is trying to cut $42 million out of its labor costs annually and has reached agreements with its pilot and mechanic unions that don't go into effect until the flight attendants take the $8.9 million cut.
Hardin immediately laid out those alternatives at the beginning of Friday's hearing, telling Comair lawyer Robert Span that either "you close the company or they go on strike."
But Hardin said he "has real problems" with the company's argument that it will not come down from the $8.9 million figure because the agreements with the other two unions won't kick in unless the flight attendants take the full amount.
"The last-man-standing argument will not fly with me," he said. The company "wants me to ignore the union argument. But I will not ignore the fact that the (flight attendants') union makes up 10 percent of the payroll but 21 percent of the total labor cuts."
Hardin also grilled lawyers representing the nearly 1,000-member Teamsters branch on their argument that the airline is profitable and doesn't need the cuts being sought.
"Are you saying that this airline has not lost $120 million and does not need to reorganize?" Hardin asked the lawyers, pointing out that the union has not offered any meaningful concessions. "I think it does, and I need help with your argument."

 

[777_Jackpot]

DOT figures don't lie (I can't even type that with a straight face!! :laugh: ) so I was more curious as to where FDJ2 got his loss amount.

I will concede the possibility that DOT filings may be inaccurate, but the fact that many of those statistics can be found on Skywest's 10-K filing with the SEC, dramatically improves the likelihood of accuracy in the numbers. Furthermore, if the DOT stats are misleading, it would be appropriate to assume that they are equally misleading for all carriers. The increased cost of operation on the 700 at ASA would still remain, relative to Skywest.

 

[USCtrojan]

Negotiations

Operating profit is not Total net profit. Since you guys can't seem to get that through your head you will never understand how out of whack ASA ALPA is. 13.1% operating profit could easily equate to a 5% real profit. A company that make 5-6% has bigger fish to fry staying afloat than handing out 17% pay raises. If you don't see that then you have no business discussing finances.

Net vs. gross, all this stuff is good. I'm not necessarily concerned with bottom line, since as reports show and I'm sure you'll agree, we are definitely profitable. The question is, do we NEED paycuts to remain profitable/competitive? Are you going to take what Mgmt. tells you blindly? It's your choice, but all I'm asking mgmt. to do is SHOW me why you need a paycut. I'll gladly take one to help out. If you can show me. When I get a bill, I survey what I'm being billed for, then pay. This is no different. So far, I've got nothing except "Costs are too high." I'm not advocating a huge payraise, and do I expect to get what ALPA has on the table now? No, hell no. Negotiation is a process. I learned that from Contract '98. I expect Mgmt. will give us nothing but bad news in the near future as we reach the endgame. No big deal. The sun will come up tomorrow. I'm going to commute, life will go on. And it will for you.

Trojan

 

[gator_hater]

You highlighted it yourself..."A figure that includes Delta's costs for Comair" They paid $X for assests which depreciate over time. This is accounting 101 if you honestly think they were not taking advantage of bk laws to accelerate/iocrease that depreciation you are nuts. That being said this is what they call a "paper loss." They could have easily operadted with a profit and still lost $120m in valuation. For instance see any Delta quarterly filing. OPerating profit -$85m, total net loss -$385m. Where did that $300m come from, I'll give you a hint it was not cash.

 

[gator_hater]

USC,

When the sticker on the car says $40k do you go in and offer 20. No, that is what ALPA is doing, that is what the company was doing with the 8% cut. In their defense they seem to have actually come with a reasonable offer, ALPA has not. I'm not for a paycut, but at least they are in the same zip code as reality.

 

[USCtrojan]

Cost

USC,

When the sticker on the car says $40k do you go in and offer 20. No, that is what ALPA is doing, that is what the company was doing with the 8% cut. In their defense they seem to have actually come with a reasonable offer, ALPA has not. I'm not for a paycut, but at least they are in the same zip code as reality.

Negotiations doesn't cost. What does it matter if their in the same zip code? You have to get a feel. The word I'm told is the Arbritrator is unbelievable po'd at the Company and not ALPA. I have no facts to back that up, but if this is the case, the company is not negotiating. Like I said, I'll take a paycut, but you better show me why I need to take one.

Trojan

 

[FDJ2]

You highlighted it yourself..."A figure that includes Delta's costs for Comair" They paid $X for assests which depreciate over time. This is accounting 101 if you honestly think they were not taking advantage of bk laws to accelerate/iocrease that depreciation you are nuts. That being said this is what they call a "paper loss." They could have easily operadted with a profit and still lost $120m in valuation. For instance see any Delta quarterly filing. OPerating profit -$85m, total net loss -$385m. Where did that $300m come from, I'll give you a hint it was not cash.

"Are you saying that this airline has not lost $120 million and does not need to reorganize?" Hardin asked the lawyers, pointing out that the union has not offered any meaningful concessions. "I think it does, and I need help with your argument."

 

[www.]

Unfortunately they data used in the begining of this thread was grossly inaccurate. Taken directly from the databases contained on the DOT - Bureau of Transportation Statistics (link on bottom of post), the numbers show CONCLUSIVELY that per flight hour, ASA cost almost 37% more to operate the CRJ700 then does Skywest.

Total Air Operations Expenses (CRJ700) In Thousands of Dollars for 2005

(definition: Expenses incurred directly in the in-flight operations of aircraft)

ASA - $202,650

Skywest - $203,996

Total Air Hours (CRJ700) In Thousands of Hours for 2005

ASA - 91 hrs

Skywest - 145 hrs

Cost to Operate (CRJ700) Per Hour In Flight Operations (2005)

ASA - $2227.00/hr

Skywest - $1407.00/hr

Its not pretty, but it is fact. But determine it for yourself:

http://transtats.bts.gov/Crosstabs.asp

If the link doesn't work let me know

(Aircraft Codes: 629 = CRJ200, 631 = CRJ700)
(Carrier Codes: EV = ASA, OO = Skywest)

Did you also consider that SKYW operates more 700s than ASA? Spread the ASA costs out over the same number of airframes and you will see a difference.

 

[SuperKooter]

The Crj 200 and 700 are the same type and should be the same pay. Why don't people see this? Just because it has 20 more seats doesn't make it a different airplane. Delta pays the same for the 767/757. How can you alpaites want 2 different payrates for the same airplane.​

 

[ASARJMan]

The Crj 200 and 700 are the same type and should be the same pay. Why don't people see this? Just because it has 20 more seats doesn't make it a different airplane. Delta pays the same for the 767/757. How can you alpaites want 2 different payrates for the same airplane.​

Now now ****, you need to get the facts correct. Delta pays the 757 drivers what it pays the 767 drivers. In other words, the pay rate for the 75 was raised to that of the 76. That's what ALPA worked out for the Delta pilots. Pretty cool huh you little girly boy. Now, try to stop that sobbing, and go back to your Saturday morning cartoons. It'll be ok, daddy won't disown you when you get furloughed. Mickey Dees is always hiring. Or, you might get on at Wendys. That way you can watch all those ASA RJs disappear.

 

[bacardi]

they are just going to gut us. even if we are cheaper

 

[777_Jackpot]

Did you also consider that SKYW operates more 700s than ASA? Spread the ASA costs out over the same number of airframes and you will see a difference.

That is an inaccurate assumption. Although your suggestion, at face value, would lower ASA's cost to operate CRJ700s by subsequently increasing the total hours that ASA flew the 700, you fail to acknowledge the fact that an increase in airframes (flight hours) results directly in a proportional increase in the total cost to operate the aircraft type. In fact, increasing the number of airframes would result, for all intesive purposes, in an identical hourly cost of operation.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Arguing these numbers is irrelevant! I can change the profitability of any business legally however I want. How you ask? Cost allocation.

I'm telling you, ASA and Skywest pilots must unite. Right now it is ASA's turn to bleed, but soon enough it will be Skywest's turn.

 

[atrdriver]

USC,

When the sticker on the car says $40k do you go in and offer 20. No, that is what ALPA is doing, that is what the company was doing with the 8% cut. In their defense they seem to have actually come with a reasonable offer, ALPA has not. I'm not for a paycut, but at least they are in the same zip code as reality.

Maybe a 1.6% increase the first year, and then that same amount for the next 8 years is in your zip code, but it's a long way from mine.

 

[atrdriver]

The Crj 200 and 700 are the same type and should be the same pay. Why don't people see this? Just because it has 20 more seats doesn't make it a different airplane. Delta pays the same for the 767/757. How can you alpaites want 2 different payrates for the same airplane.
​

And yet, the 777 is on the same type too i believe, and it has it's own payscale. And DAL didn't used to pay the same for the 75/76, that is something new. And yes, 20 more seats does make it a different airplane, because the company makes more money with it. Pilots have traditionally been paid based on a/c weight and seat capacity. IOW, the more money the company can make from an a/c the more the crew makes to fly it. Why can 't you see that?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm telling you, ASA and Skywest pilots must unite. Right now it is ASA's turn to bleed, but soon enough it will be Skywest's turn.

I agree, but YOUR MEC doesn't believe that is attainable in this contract. That is the single most important thing we can achieve - the rest doesn't matter in the long run.

 

[1x1]

If superpooper thinks the 50 and 70 are the same airplane, then he obviously flys neither one of them. Yeah the front windows are the same, the CRT's are the same, but it pretty much stops there. Not to mention that the pilots ought to get an extra cut of the extra 20 seats of revenue on principle alone. doosherpooper is ignored!

 

[777_Jackpot]

Not to mention that the pilots ought to get an extra cut of the extra 20 seats of revenue on principle alone. doosherpooper is ignored!

If thats true, then it should also follow that the pilots should take an extra cut of the loss, if those same 20 seats are not filled.

 

[D'Angelo]

This just goes to show ALPO is a bunch of tards. They scream the same chants over and over and refuse to recognize. Rome(ASA) is burning and they are LYING to their pilots. Not suprising at all though. From a fellow comair pilot stand strong skywest pilots. Tell ALPO to goto hell!

 

[Tomct]

Funny 777, You must not fly much, because all of my CR7 seats have been how can I say....FULL...FULL....FULL!!!!

 

[DrunkIrishman]

If thats true, then it should also follow that the pilots should take an extra cut of the loss, if those same 20 seats are not filled.

No. We only fly them, we don't run the revenue management side. We get paid on the ability to generate revenue.

 

[wmuflyguy]

If thats true, then it should also follow that the pilots should take an extra cut of the loss, if those same 20 seats are not filled.

ASA gets paid the same wether or not the seats have people in them.

 

[www.]

ASA gets paid the same wether or not the seats have people in them.

Unless the flight is 4 or more hours late.

 

[surplus1]

It was in the Delta BanKruptcy filing and the local Cinci rag.

FDJ2,

The DOT information that said Comair was "making lots of money" came from Delta Management.

The Bankruptcy information that said Comair is "losing lots of money" came from Delta Management.

Conclusion: 1) We don't know if Comair is profitable or losing money. 2) We do know that Delta Mangement is not consistent. 3) The accounting is a bogus as it was when it came from Arthur Anderson.

Management alters the numbers to prove whathever they want to prove.

Isn't that what they did to your pilot group?

 

[777_Jackpot]

Funny 777, You must not fly much, because all of my CR7 seats have been how can I say....FULL...FULL....FULL!!!!

Well, with ASA's average load factor being just over 70%, I would say, it is your flights that are slightly above the norm. With that being said, slightly over 70% of 70 seats is 50 seats... the pay rate you need to be operating at in order to be competitive. Its ironic how those numbers work out.

 

[sweptback]

Well, with ASA's average load factor being just over 70%, I would say, it is your flights that are slightly above the norm. With that being said, slightly over 70% of 70 seats is 50 seats... the pay rate you need to be operating at in order to be competitive. Its ironic how those numbers work out.

That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've heard all day. So our pay rates should be based on load factor now? Should I be getting E-120 pay because 70% of 50 seats is 35?

 

[Tomct]

:laugh:Sweptback, I have to agree with you....777 that is the DUMBEST thing I have ever heard. Yeah, only get paid for the seats that are full....RIIIIIGHT!!! MMMMMMKAY!

 

[777_Jackpot]

:laugh:Sweptback, I have to agree with you....777 that is the DUMBEST thing I have ever heard. Yeah, only get paid for the seats that are full....RIIIIIGHT!!! MMMMMMKAY!

I would probably ensure I have a FIRM grasp of what is being said before commenting again. If you would follow the chain of logic preceding my post, you would see I was contradicting the post of 1X1, where HE, makes the correlation between seats/revenue and pilot pay (the "extra 20 seats of revenue"). I was not implying that pilots should be paid based on the number of seats filled in their respective aircraft.

 

[EMB to CRJ]

USCtrojan 3rd quarter 2005 is before the sale and the new contract with delta. Where do you find the form on the dot web site that has that much detail?