ASA contract position.

[kc81900]

I have lost all respect for the Comair pilot group.

The reason? I was sent a letter by the Chairman of the Comair MEC. I am sure that all ASA pilots received this same letter. Included with that letter was a sticker which said essentially the same thing as the letter, which was "Comair pilots support ASA pilots," or something to that effect (I don't remember the exact words, as I have thrown it in the trash, where it belongs). Meanwhile, the Comair pilot group is voting in favor of a concessionary agreement which directly undermines the ASA pilots' negotiations.

Since the Chairman of Comair's MEC speaks for the Comair pilots, I can then conclude that the Comair pilots are as two-faced as he is.

Well done, guys.

Get a life and accept responsibility for yourself. You sound pathetic. Now Comair is the cause of your problems. Nothing more pathetic than an adult ( I use the term loosly) blaming someone else for his/her problems. Until you sign a contract that is above the comair contract you have no leg to stand on. We can sit here on this web site and equally argue that ASA would easily sign a TA that was less than our contract and say they did the best they could under post 9/11. With absolutely no consideration of the Comair Pilot Group. You get what you can negotiate and the market will bare period if you don't believe that I would suggest you go get an education in business. I have never had any respect for the ASA pilot group so I guess we are equal.

Well done, you idiot.

 

[dvmthwsvan]

I have lost all respect for the Comair pilot group.

The reason? I was sent a letter by the Chairman of the Comair MEC. I am sure that all ASA pilots received this same letter. Included with that letter was a sticker which said essentially the same thing as the letter, which was "Comair pilots support ASA pilots," or something to that effect (I don't remember the exact words, as I have thrown it in the trash, where it belongs). Meanwhile, the Comair pilot group is voting in favor of a concessionary agreement which directly undermines the ASA pilots' negotiations.

Since the Chairman of Comair's MEC speaks for the Comair pilots, I can then conclude that the Comair pilots are as two-faced as he is.

Well done, guys.

According to your quote at the end of your post I shouldn't respond. But I have to. I hope you are speaking out of anger and will regret it later. Do you not think that this is exactly what mgt. wants. Us to start getting ticked off at each other. I still have my sticker on my bag. And I still support y'all. I hope you get a contract that blows everyone out of the water. But you know what, now no matter how good it is it is going to be comair's fault that it isnt better. If it is better than ours the excuse will be "well, just think how good it would have been if y'all didnt take a freeze". If its lower than what we have then its going to be "well y'all took a freeze so we had no choice" You know, I hope I haven't lost your respect. But if I have, so be it. I didn't vote for this freeze and neither did 40% of us. But the majority rules. That's the reason we vote. I have to live with it and so do you. If I don't like it I can go back to instructing for 8,000 a year, or go somewhere else. Either one will be a pay cut, so I like my position right now. And if you think that having 35 more aircraft on the lot in two years will not benefit us in the next negotiations, youre wrong. Just wait, in two years we'll have another contract that will be industry leading and maybe I'll "get your respect back". But for now I am going to quit arguing with you before people can't tell us apart.

 

[atrdriver]

While I am dissappointed in the ultimate outcome of this, and I think that you played right into managements hands, and I think that you did in fact undermine the ASA contract talks, I also respect that you had to make the decision that you though was right. That having been said, I remember just after the DAL contract was signed some people started calling the 70 seat RJ's the "scope jet". When I see the first ERJ in CMR colors it will be, in my mind, the "concession jet".

 

[homerjdispatch]

Get a life and accept responsibility for yourself. You sound pathetic. Now Comair is the cause of your problems. Nothing more pathetic than an adult ( I use the term loosly) blaming someone else for his/her problems. .

If I remember correctly, one of the escuses COMAIR pilots used, was to blame EVERYONE else for not "raising the bar". So COMAIR pilots "were forced into" accepting the PAY FREEZE/CONCESSIONS!!

 

[79%N1]

Look, here is the harsh reality.......ASA will not get a contract that raises ANY damm bar!!!! We are nearly 3 FREAKIN years into negotiations and have TA'd slightly over 1/3 of the contract. That translates to 8+ years until this is done!!!! We would NEVER have got a Comair + contract when all was said and done! And, IF WE DID.......we would have faced the same situation that faced Comair. ZER0 growth, stagnation, etc....So, where would we ultimately be??? Sure, I make .50 cents more than a Comair pilot, but my company stagnates into oblivion. Our jobs get outsourced to CHQ, or whomever else. The stark reality now is that we need to tell Delta that we want exactly what Comair has now. That is the bar now. Sure, it may be lower than they originally set it, but where was towing the line going to get them in todays economic climate/Airline industry. Same with us at ASA.....Comairs current contract is signifigantly better than our current one, especially in the most important areas to us, QOL issues! In fact, the COmair pay freeze contract pretty closely mirrors the one Express Jet just signed! So, this is where we are at. I personally dont wish our negotiations to drag out 5 + MORE YEARS, to get a buck or 2 more than Comair. Enough is enough. Lets walk in and say we want what they have, get our retro pay and QOL issues worked out and get on with it!

 

[Ad Lib]

I still have my sticker on my bag.

Mee Too

With a big red X on it

 

[N2264J]

Re: ASA contract position

Comairs current contract is signifigantly better than our current one, especially in the most important areas to us, QOL issues!

True. It's a free market thing. Delta Air Lines and the Comair pilots have agreed in principle to what a sustainable contract in today's environment is for operating our type of equipment at Delta Air Lines.

You need ALPA's endorsement at the NMB to get to self help and you're not going to get it. A strike at ASA could send Delta careening into bankruptcy and the Delta pilots simply are not going to allow that to happen. I suspect the Delta pilots still contribute more dues dollars to ALPA than any other airline. You think ALPA is going to risk that for ASA?

There couldn't be a worse time in airline history to be negotiating but the Comair contract is within your reach now. Grab it and get out of Section 6. We can fight the good fight another day when the industry comes back.

 

[Ad Lib]

True. It's a free market thing. Delta Air Lines and the Comair pilots have agreed in principle to what a sustainable contract in today's environment is for operating our type of equipment at Delta Air Lines.

.....the Comair contract is within your reach now. Grab it and get out of Section 6. We can fight the good fight another day when the industry comes back.

I love this economic justification for the betrayal of the ASA pilots. Did ALPA provide you with any economic analysis of the Comair concessions? Did Delta? So how do you know?

The Comair Concession ( around 1% of revenue ) is pretty insignificant in the face of $49 a barrell oil. A $10 change in the hourly operating cost of a $2,800 to $3,200 jet is meaningless.

Also, you guys went for it once - why not another round of concessionary negotiations next year? You know, things change and if oil goes to $55 a barrell and the E190 shows up for the bidding.....

The Comair pilots negotiated without the facts and ratified without thinking.

Ad Lib

 

[RJFlyer]

Now Comair is the cause of your problems. Nothing more pathetic than an adult ( I use the term loosly) blaming someone else for his/her problems.

I said nothing about Comair being the source of any problems. I said I was sent a letter and sticker by the Chairman of the Comair MEC, saying you support the ASA pilots in negotiations, while directly undermining those negotiations by accepting concessions for phantom growth. I said you were two-faced, and by this quote:

I have never had any respect for the ASA pilot group so I guess we are equal.

I have been proven correct.

Fool.

 

[Tomct]

Wow, talk about blood in the water! Here we are all yelling at each other when in fact we should be on the same team!! You Know, the "Wholey Owned Team!" Comair guys, I am sad that you passed such a deal, but you thought it was best....Whatever the reason, I hope that they don't come back at you guys next year for something else...Look at what has happened to United! ASA Pilots....We need to worry about ourselves and do what is right for us! Yes, We still hold all of the cards...WHY you say.....Because we OWN ATL!! We need to stay strong and go for nothing but Comair Plus...(the old Comair) and tell mgmnt. to Screw themselves for anything less! They asked us to take a pay cut before to get more airplanes, and we told them to SHOVE IT!!! We still got the airplanes! Stop B!tching and get ready to take the gloves OFF!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Tom:

Sorry but the "Wholly Owned Team" went home in separate busses after it was found out that one half the members were in cahoots with our adversary and our managers did not bother reading the play book.

You are right that we need unity. But this is an abusive relationship. Comair's MEC jumped in bed with a manager who has a pretty mouth, got pregnant and it is keeping the baby.

~~~^~~~

 

[N2264J]

Re: ASA contract position

I love this economic justification for the betrayal of the ASA pilots. Did ALPA provide you with any economic analysis of the Comair concessions? Did Delta? So how do you know?

It was management's, (and I mean Delta's) offer. The LOA changed little from the original proposal. In other words, our contract is what Delta Air Lines believes is a sustainable agreement for those flying similar equipment at Delta Air Lines.

Seize the opportunity and we'll meet you in the middle!

If I understand it correctly, you were offered Comair's contract during your opener and the ASA pilots said "No, thank you." I'd like to think hindsight is 20/15. Don't make that same mistake twice.

 

[shamrock]

Considering how stuck our management is in their "zero net gain, cost neutral" position, I don't see them simply offering up a match to CMR.

Seems to me a match (or any improvements for that matter) would have to be fought for. But what do I know, I'm just a pylit.

 

[Ad Lib]

You were offered Comair's contract during your opener and the ASA pilots said "No, thank you." I'd like to think hindsight is 20/15. Don't make that same mistake twice.

It wasn't a mistake.

 

[N2264J]

Re: ASA contract position

It wasn't a mistake.

So you could have had Comair's contract two and a half years ago, during the opener, post 9-11, industry in a tailspin, Delta's pending brush with bankruptcy, and in hindsight, you don't believe passing on it was a mistake?

 

[wms]

It was management's, (and I mean Delta's) offer. The LOA changed little from the original proposal. In other words, our contract is what Delta Air Lines believes is a sustainable agreement for those flying similar equipment at Delta Air Lines.

Seize the opportunity and we'll meet you in the middle!

If I understand it correctly, you were offered Comair's contract during your opener and the ASA pilots said "No, thank you." I'd like to think hindsight is 20/15. Don't make that same mistake twice.

Not true, or we would've taken it given the economic conditions. They offered 10% in pay, then all other improvements would have been subtracted from the pay increase, This is often a first move by mgmts.

 

[shamrock]

Not true, or we would've taken it given the economic conditions. They offered 10% in pay, then all other improvements would have been subtracted from the pay increase, This is often a first move by mgmts.

So the idea that we were offered the CMR contract is basically an urban legend? Can someone clarify it once and for all?

If we were in fact offered a match of CMR 2 and a half years ago wouldn't that have put it before the new Mesa, CHQ, and PCL contracts and before SKW and AWAC gave concessions? That would have to affect how the offer was viewed. Hindsight is great and a match of the CMR contract would be great now, but at the time it wouldn't have been so obvious.

 

[N2264J]

Re: ASA contract position

So the idea that we were offered the CMR contract is basically an urban legend?

Still, Delta Air Lines and the Comair pilots have agreed in concept that the Comair contract is sustainable in the current environment for those operating similar equipment at Delta Air Lines.

With the exception of not getting a raise in June and some longevity increases, it's the same contract. Surely, I'm not the only one who sees opportunity here. Your managment would like to have labor peace in these troubled times and known fixed costs for the next few years. Both would enhance and facilitate ASA's sale or IPO. That's what Delta wants isn't it?

This might break the log jam if you're willing to do a deal.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Still, Delta Air Lines and the Comair pilots have agreed in concept that the Comair contract is sustainable in the current environment for those operating similar equipment at Delta Air Lines.

Yes but the "current environment" is a constanly moving target. The Delta re-org plan and concessions made with the mainline pilots were based on an assumed price of oil at $40 a barrell. The price shot to $49 and is on its way to $54. That is the reason that I do not think that Comair pilots are done negotiating.

$20 million was a drop in the bucket, or barrell, as the case may be. All it established is that pilots are willing to "buy" airplanes and take cuts to offset other market realities, whether it be lack of revenue, or expensive oil.

All across the industry we see wages in free fall because as airlines get backed into a corner, wages are the only cost they can control. I think it is in the long term interest of both the employees and the employers that wages are taken out of the equation as a variable cost that can be negotiated relative to other market variations. If that means that some airlines go out of business, then so be it.

The current ponzi scheme of employee pay cuts being the justification for increased liquidity in capital markets is not sustainable because employee pay cuts do not add up to enough money to make a difference in the overall operation.

So, I think the Comair pilots will be asked again for concessions.... now that they know that works and unfortunately, none of this means the Company supports Comair wages in the current market because the market is so darn volitile right now.

~~~^~~~

 

[N2264J]

Re: ASA contract position

Yes but the "current environment" is a constanly moving target. The Delta re-org plan and concessions made with the mainline pilots were based on an assumed price of oil at $40 a barrell. The price shot to $49 and is on its way to $54. That is the reason that I do not think that Comair pilots are done negotiating.

Fair point. I know that Comair's business model is based on mid $40s per barrel. Independence Air's model was low $30s. I don't know what ASA's is but that's sure to be a component in the bargaining process.

As for management coming back, it could happen. But it could happen if we voted it down as well demanding pay cuts instead of freezes. Or Comair could just wither on the vine like Air Wisconsin, Alleghany and Piedmont. There were risks either way we voted and I think the risks were greater to our pilot group if we voted it down.

All it established is that pilots are willing to "buy" airplanes and take cuts to offset other market realities, whether it be lack of revenue, or expensive oil.

I think everyone understands we're not buying airplanes with the money management realizes with the pay freeze. To me, this was all about job security. This LOA guarantees no less than 199 aircraft over the next three years. That equates to job security for every Comair pilot on the property today. I thought that was worth buying.

So we still don't eat our young and the Delta pilots on this board and ALPA's stirring up the pot and trying to drive that wedge between us, can't say that.

As you know, our union will not permit us to negotiate job security with the entity that controls the flying. This is as close as we can get to bargaining some kind of scope at Comair. I think it's as good as any "no furlough" clause but we'll see how it works out. If the planes don't arrive on schedule, we get our pay raise back.

But when it's all said and done, there wouldn't be all this acrimony and we wouldn't be put in positions of having to make choices like this if ALPA were a champion of unity instead of what it is.

 

[79%N1]

Good points fins.....I'll take it one step further. Employee compensation should not finance higher costs, like oil prices --------
CONSUMERS SHOULD!!!! If it costs xxxx more dollars to move the consumer from point A to point B, then the CUSTOMER should pay for that. How basic. If the rubber manufacturer raises its prices, the price of tires go up. If the farmer charges more for the milk or grain, the supermarket raises its prices. It does not ask for the cashiers and stockboys to take a paycut! HOW REDICULOUS!!!!!

 

[Nostromo]

Good points fins.....I'll take it one step further. Employee compensation should not finance higher costs, like oil prices --------
CONSUMERS SHOULD!!!! If it costs xxxx more dollars to move the consumer from point A to point B, then the CUSTOMER should pay for that. How basic. If the rubber manufacturer raises its prices, the price of tires go up. If the farmer charges more for the milk or grain, the supermarket raises its prices. It does not ask for the cashiers and stockboys to take a paycut! HOW REDICULOUS!!!!!

When the majors weren't duking it out with the LCCs that was the case, but in today's environment, that's clearly not the way the things happen. As long as SW and AirTran can be profitable, and as long as US Air is hurting and the others (DL, CAL, NW) can survive, it's in their interest to keep fairs low. It's putting pressure on the weak and with the continued pressure the hope for the LCCs and the 'stronger' of the majors is that this will kill off one or two of the danglers. If everyone was hurting the consumers would no doubt be forced to pay their share.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Comair could just wither on the vine like Air Wisconsin, Alleghany and Piedmont. There were risks either way we voted and I think the risks were greater to our pilot group if we voted it down.

To me, this was all about job security. This LOA guarantees no less than 199 aircraft over the next three years. That equates to job security for every Comair pilot on the property today. I thought that was worth buying.

As you know, our union will not permit us to negotiate job security with the entity that controls the flying. This is as close as we can get to bargaining some kind of scope at Comair. I think it's as good as any "no furlough" clause but we'll see how it works out. If the planes don't arrive on schedule, we get our pay raise back.

But when it's all said and done, there wouldn't be all this acrimony and we wouldn't be put in positions of having to make choices like this if ALPA were a champion of unity instead of what it is.

Really good post

What I am curious about is how management convinced the Comair pilots that they were going to wither on the vine. Everyone in Atlanta assumed the next batch of planes were coming to CVG because of ASA is at capacity and Delta would not want it's 2.5 billion dollar investment in Comair to wither.

Also what I can not understand is how the same people that argue the importance of unity within ALPA, then break unity with pilots at ASA. It would have been fairly easy for our MEC's to coordinate on this issue and manage its presentation to the pilots. We could have linked the Comair and ASA negotiations - but that was not done, pr even attempted. Instead it looks like Comair pilots jumped at an opportunity before really considering the purchase and the effect of their actions.

There is a market for 50 seat RJ's. That market may not be as large as it currently is, but that has more to do with fuel prices than pilot wages. Delta can protect its Comair and ASA assets, or outsource like US Air did. I tend to think Delta will continue to promote Comair and ASA. US Air & United were different stories because of their bankruptcy and jets for jobs agreements that tended to push airplanes off to certificates where the jets were flown by mainline pilots, or under mainline control. Mid Atlantic for example.

I don't know if ASA pilots will ever work with Comair pilots again. It certainly is in our mutual best interest to work together, but the Comair pilots really screwed this up. Not as much with their yes vote as with the way that they failed to coordinate with ASA before putting it to a vote.

~~~^~~~

 

[N2264J]

Re: ASA contract position

What I am curious about is how management convinced the Comair pilots that they were going to wither on the vine.

There were no overt threats from management. It's just the nature of the industry we're in. We're hunkering down into survival mode. Even though the hole is on Delta's side of the boat, we perceive our feet are about to get wet.
I hope we guessed right.

It would have been fairly easy for our MEC's to coordinate on this issue and manage its presentation to the pilots. We could have linked the Comair and ASA negotiations - but that was not done, pr even attempted.

Honestly, that is a real shame. I can't speak for the MEC. Believe me, as an RJDC proponent, I have serious issues with those guys and how they've become a mouthpiece for ALPA legal instead of an unequivocal advocate for Comair pilots. A lot of the time, I'm not sure they know what they're doing or what the ramifications might be. I've been politicking for Paul Lackie for MEC Chairman to all Status Reps since 1999 when de Lagarde retired (really miss that guy). But so far, no one is listening to me.

 

[US Flyer]

...... Employee compensation should not finance higher costs, like oil prices --------CONSUMERS SHOULD!!!! If it costs xxxx more dollars to move the consumer from point A to point B, then the CUSTOMER should pay for that. How basic. If the rubber manufacturer raises its prices, the price of tires go up. If the farmer charges more for the milk or grain,...

THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS THE KEY TO MOST OF THE PROBLEMS THE AIRLINES ARE HAVING!
The race to the bottom is an industry wide problem. If certain unnamed legacy carriers are going to end up going out of business and selling tickets at unreasonably low prices, why do the other Majors, regionals, nationals think that they should price match? Where did the notion of providing a better service for the extra few dollars spent go? If I go to buy a Porsche at the dealership instead of an Mitsubishi, I know I'm going to spend more money, but expect a better product/service/customer experience. Or is part of the race to the bottom involve treating all of your passengers like crap also, regardless of much or little they paid for a ticket. It certainly holds true in ATL. Band-Aids on bullet wounds only works for a little while.

In recent months passenger travel volume has finally surpassed pre-9/11 levels. So start charging more for the tickets instead of PAYING US LESS!

I'm personally really tired of being beat up on by management during contract negotiations, having crappy scheduling rules, contract abuse and low pay. Why should I foot the bill for my regional to grow? I don't give a rats a#% whether we grow or not. My pay should not be tied to our company getting more aircraft. We probably wouldn't need more aircraft if they hired smarter people at the G.O. to more efficiently utilize the resources they have and not turn every schedule into a dayline with four hour breaks or a month-long nap line.

I don't have any personal animosity towards the CMR pilots, but can't for the life of me figure out how and why this happened.

IF I CAN'T HAVE A UNION APPROVED WORK SLOWDOWN I'M GOING TO VENT HERE INSTEAD.

 

[79%N1]

Funny thing I noticed today. The price of oil increased, and unbelievably when I drove by the gas station, the price went up from 1.79 to 1.89/gallon! Maybe the airlines should hire one of these geniuses from Exxon or BP to run their companys! I wonder if the gas station attendants were asked to take paycuts to finance the purchase of new slurpy machines??

 

[MedFlyer]

Funny thing I noticed today. The price of oil increased, and unbelievably when I drove by the gas station, the price went up from 1.79 to 1.89/gallon! Maybe the airlines should hire one of these geniuses from Exxon or BP to run their companys! I wonder if the gas station attendants were asked to take paycuts to finance the purchase of new slurpy machines??

Your comparison fails because the two goods are not similar. Fuel is a necessity for most people. They cannot complete even basic tasks without fuel. Air travel, on the other hand, is largely a luxury. In economic terms, air travel and fuel have extremely different elasticities of demand.

You're also making the assumption that raising prices will raise revenue. This is not necessarily the case. In fact, raising prices could actually lower revenue.

Example:

Let's say I have an airplane with 100 seats. Right now, I fill 80 of those seats with each passenger paying $100. Total revenue = $8000.

Now, because fuel prices rise, I decide to tack on an extra $10. However, that extra fare increase causes me to lose 10 customers. Now, I have 70 customers paying $110. Total revenue = $7700.

So instead of increasing revenue, the fare hike actually cost me revenue. Again, it all goes back to elasticities of demand.

 

[av8tor4239]

I agree strongly agree with everything that was mentioned about employees substidising thier companies low fare cost structure. It is absolutly ridiculous...

But you must remember that we are all Human and guilty of price shopping. The Porche analogy used earlier does not work because for the most part, the service from all major/regional airlines in the USA is in the toilet. So all the "cars are equal in value".

My brother called me the other day and informed me that he just purchased via the internet a Round Trip ticket on Delta from LAX to Norfolk VA. for $174.00 fare. After taxes it was $210.00. This ticket is to travel in several months, but COME ON.. that is cheaper than Grayhound (and the block time is measured in DAYS) check it out:

http://www.greyhound.com/scripts/TicketCenter/Step4.asp

(I tried to bring up the actual price for you, but you will have to enter LOS ANGELES to NORFOLK.. JUNE 4 return JUNE 14.)

This has to stop, and the only way to stop it is to stand up to our managment and tell them we wont do it. Comair Caved, ASA will not!

 

[US Flyer]

Your comparison fails because ....in fact raising prices could actually lower revenue.

Now, because fuel prices rise, I decide to tack on an extra $10. However, that extra fare increase causes me to lose 10 customers. ...QUOTE]

I don't know who you work for, but all of our flights, and those of our parent company are generally oversold. If you try and non-rev anywhere in the system you have a hell of time going anywhere. Especially bad if you commute on the airlines to work. So the "leisure travellers" you are talking about would take our flights from overcapacity 110% full to merely 100% full. Full is full, and many if not most of our passengers are travelling on company business, so they are not footing the bill for the ticket.

Your logic would be correct if the flights weren't so full, but I have noticed it getting almost impossible to non-rev travel anywhere in the system in the last year or so- much worse than it was in the year 2000 and before 9/11.

 

[buscap]

predictable

Given the stagnate situation within the seniority lists, the action of the Comair pilots is both regrettable and predictable. The Up Yours attitude toward such management proposals only lasts so long.

While it would be nice to think the ASA pilots would do otherwise, we will never know. Like it or not, we are competitors.

I say this to all my ASA brothers: It does us no good to blame others or "what if" the situation. The only thing which will get us anywhere is a steadfast immediate willingess to walk, for good. It's either that or accept the status quoe. But above all, let's stop the whining. I divorced a woman who behaved like this.

And to the Comair guys....I could be way wrong, but my gut says you would've got the planes anyway. You guys do good work and would make money with the planes and DCI knows it.