ASA: Captain's Authority vs. Insubordination?

[Maiko]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maiko
I have to agree with several replies reqarding this issue. It needs to be in the best interest in pax, not crew comfort. Would you wish to be stranded somewhere, like maybe your comute home because a crew refused to fly becuase its hot? I would have to say No. Though I do understand the long days that crews put in, no matter whom they fly for (commuter wise), it is just plain uncomfortable. Me, I would suffer 110 degrees in the cabin as long as I knew I was going home, or anywhere else for that matter.

Mike

Maybe you would, and you may indeed be in the kind of shape where you won't have a major health issue. But there are 50 other people on that airplane, some old, some babies, etc. Can that 85 year old woman take 95+ degrees in the cabin for 2 hours? Can the baby? If one of them develops heatstroke, or worse, dies, do you think the company is going to back the pilot? No, they are going to say "I don't know WHY he accepted a plane that couldn't be kept cool." So when the lawsuit comes, it is coming after YOU.__________________
atrdriver
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I am serious...and don't call me Shirley"

"If there's a Rock N Roll Heaven, well you know they've got a hell of a band"


I am curious, not to be negative and to avoid an all out bashing, but how long have many of you all been in this business?
Planes have been flying pax for a long time and many did not have APU's. Matter of fact how many commuters today don't have APU's. I can easily name several that did not, and were flown all over the country.
CA212, PA351, B99, 1900, Dash8 200's (MESA), DHC-6.
I am not against the fact that you feel that everyone should be comfortable and to look out for pax safety, but for as long as I have been in aviation, I find that you or any other flt crew personally really give 2 $hitz about the pax. If I'm wrong I apologize and their may actually be some that do care. But I don't believe this is truly a pax comfort issue.
Yes the RJ sucks on the ground even with an APU, but so do many acft with APUs. I'm sorry that things are so bad at your place of employment to where you are using things like this to fight back, but it appears that my opinion is far from being alone.
Mike

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Do you guys not have ground air? Hook it up, take a delay, and let the a/c cool off. Who cares how hot/humid it is outside. All I care about is the temperature of the cabin.

In theory... yes, we have ground air. In practice.. no we don't. Not to mention, even if you are lucky enough to get an air cart at the gate, after a typical Atlanta taxi-out, it's still 100+ in the cabin.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maiko
I have to agree with several replies reqarding this issue. It needs to be in the best interest in pax, not crew comfort. Would you wish to be stranded somewhere, like maybe your comute home because a crew refused to fly becuase its hot? I would have to say No. Though I do understand the long days that crews put in, no matter whom they fly for (commuter wise), it is just plain uncomfortable. Me, I would suffer 110 degrees in the cabin as long as I knew I was going home, or anywhere else for that matter.

Fair enough... but, I've flown aircraft without APUs for other carriers, and I've ridden in the back of plenty of aircraft without APUs, and I can honestly say you won't find one worse than the -200. Having said that, if you're willing to take the risks associated with taxiing for 30-40 minutes with a cabin temperature of over 100 degrees, then more power to you. I, for one, am not. I have, and will again, refused an aircraft that another crew left for me at an outstation with an inop APU because I am unwilling to subject my passengers to that sort of treatment. If you want to do it then, by all means, be my guest, as long as it is YOUR decision and not one you have been bullied into by dispatch. I've seen somebody die from heat stroke right in front of me...a 9 month old baby, as a matter of fact. It's not pretty, it's not something I will ever forget as long as I live, and it's not something I am ever going to risk happening on my aircraft.

 

[atrdriver]

But I don't believe this is truly a pax comfort issue.
Yes the RJ sucks on the ground even with an APU, but so do many acft with APUs. I'm sorry that things are so bad at your place of employment to where you are using things like this to fight back, but it appears that my opinion is far from being alone.
Mike

NO, it is NOT a passenger comfort issue. It is a passenger SAFETY issue. When you put 50 people in a confined area, with no airflow, with a temp often over 95 degrees, some people are not going to be able to handle it. I am not having someone die on MY airplane because I was not willing to be the PIC. Yes, I have flown hot aircraft. I flew the ATR for 7 years in the summer in ATL. I am willing to sweat myself, but I am not willing to have a baby pass out because ASA isn't willing to fix their planes. And you're right, the 1900 doesn't have an APU. IT also only holds 19 people. There is a big difference in body heat generated between 19 and 50, or 66 for that matter.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I am curious, not to be negative and to avoid an all out bashing, but how long have many of you all been in this business?
Planes have been flying pax for a long time and many did not have APU's. Matter of fact how many commuters today don't have APU's. I can easily name several that did not, and were flown all over the country.
CA212, PA351, B99, 1900, Dash8 200's (MESA), DHC-6.
I am not against the fact that you feel that everyone should be comfortable and to look out for pax safety, but for as long as I have been in aviation, I find that you or any other flt crew personally really give 2 $hitz about the pax. If I'm wrong I apologize and their may actually be some that do care. But I don't believe this is truly a pax comfort issue.
Yes the RJ sucks on the ground even with an APU, but so do many acft with APUs. I'm sorry that things are so bad at your place of employment to where you are using things like this to fight back, but it appears that my opinion is far from being alone.
Mike

A lot of airplanes didn't have GPWS or TCAS many years ago either, now we cant operate without them. Are you suggesting that we don't need A/C because in 1956, a DC-6 didn't have it so we shouldn't need it now? The difference is only a few people die in the heat so we don't care. When airplanes hit mountains, we suddenly care.

Just because SOMEONE is flying with no A/C DOES NOT mean that we need to.

 

[Maiko]

Ok, ok. You are all correct. All I wanted to find out was how many would use this as an excuse not fly. I for one still want to go home at the end of the day or to my destination of choice. I would be happy with a bottle of water (not just a cup). But when it comes to the elderly and youngins, then I concede.
Peace
Mike

 

[Maiko]

[/quote] Just because SOMEONE is flying with no A/C DOES NOT mean that we need to.[/quote]

No, I do agree, but what are the chances of every acft being 100%? How many of your cars are perfect? There is no feasable way for anyone to keep these junk APUs running. I work for a carrier that at least keeps up on the APU's and have limited amount on deferrable status. We also try MEL them with door open so they can still be used. I am proud to work for who I do because they really push issues like this home to everyone.
We also maintain a very short MEL list. They do get fixed.
This very moment we have 29 MELs for our entire fleet.

Mike

 

[CrownandCoke]

at Pinnacle, the gate agents now are supposed to make an announcement that the airplane will be hot and anyone that cannot get on this airplane can take a later flight. How well do you think that works?

 

[Maiko]

at Pinnacle, the gate agents now are supposed to make an announcement that the airplane will be hot and anyone that cannot get on this airplane can take a later flight. How well do you think that works?

I thinks thats a good idea. Perfect? No but it gives pax a choice. The only question is do they let them know how hot?

I still think they should give out water by the bottle as you board the plane.

 

[av8er2]

We all should know that almost all of ASA dispatchers are new and/or don't know anything. You really are single pilot on this one. Make a descision based on the pax.

They have sure been messing up lately.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

They have sure been messing up lately.

No kidding.. My last 3 day.... 3 legs with no alternate when there should have been one. Granted, I get paid to catch this kind of stuff, but come on.......

 

[701EV]

Dog,

ditto!

701ev

 

[atrdriver]

at Pinnacle, the gate agents now are supposed to make an announcement that the airplane will be hot and anyone that cannot get on this airplane can take a later flight. How well do you think that works?

And how many times have you had a defered LAV on a 2 hour leg, the gate makes an announcement to take care of business before boarding, and as soon as you pass 10,000 someone starts screaming that they need to go? You can explain it all you want, and people don't understand. I tell people that it is like just getting into your car when the windows have been up and it's been sitting in the sun for 4 hours on a 100 degree day. And they still don't understand.

 

[Maiko]

And how many times have you had a defered LAV on a 2 hour leg, the gate makes an announcement to take care of business before boarding, and as soon as you pass 10,000 someone starts screaming that they need to go? You can explain it all you want, and people don't understand. I tell people that it is like just getting into your car when the windows have been up and it's been sitting in the sun for 4 hours on a 100 degree day. And they still don't understand.

Funny but true!!! Its time to raise the ticket prices and let them catch a comfortable Grey Hound, (with AC and a LAV)

 

[John Pennekamp]

Just keep in mind that the company will tell you you're good to fly, but if someone in the back has a stroke, the FIRST THING the lawyers and company will say is "He's the captain, he could have refused the airplane".

It's great to help the company, and bend the rules or ignore common sense in the name of "taking care of the passengers" or "getting them to their destination", and company will applaud you for it... right up until something goes wrong and they throw you under the bus.

There's no reason to fly a CRJ-200 with no APU above 70 degrees. Especially in ATL with the half hour money lines. With no air flow, that cabin will be 95 degrees by takeoff, and won't cool for an hour.

Be a captain, grow a spine, and JUST SAY NO.

 

[Airboss]

Just keep in mind that the company will tell you you're good to fly, but if someone in the back has a stroke, the FIRST THING the lawyers and company will say is "He's the captain, he could have refused the airplane".

It's great to help the company, and bend the rules or ignore common sense in the name of "taking care of the passengers" or "getting them to their destination", and company will applaud you for it... right up until something goes wrong and they throw you under the bus.

There's no reason to fly a CRJ-200 with no APU above 70 degrees. Especially in ATL with the half hour money lines. With no air flow, that cabin will be 95 degrees by takeoff, and won't cool for an hour.

Be a captain, grow a spine, and JUST SAY NO.

John, I cannot believe I am about to say this.....this is a first.....
I agree with you!

Fly safe.

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

I WILL take a no-APU plane in 95-degree heat. Hopefully nobody gets hurt, but if someone heatstrokes, they can sue me for all I got! My big fat regional-captain bank account!!

 

[ReportCanoa]

Yeah, I agree. But try "forcing" yo flight attendant or FO. Chances are they'll use this opportunity to upgrade their status from magazine rack/ coke machine to Commander in Chief. They love that stuff if you give 'em the opportunity.

 

[Wheres the van?]

At the risk of legal action I must refer the matter to our company legal department before i conduct this flight,no offence dispatch.They should get back to you in a week.

 

[Mr Wu]

So, the shiny jet dulls in the heat?

 

[mkingmei]

I WILL take a no-APU plane in 95-degree heat. Hopefully nobody gets hurt, but if someone heatstrokes, they can sue me for all I got! My big fat regional-captain bank account!!

this is retarded and should not be attempted by anyone. this kind of crap gives us all bad names. stand up for yourselves and your passengers... since that is your job. i understand this might be in jest but it is not some idea to give to some new 220 hour Flight Safety wonder that doesn't know any better.

 

[Copydat]

Some of you guys make this seem like such a simple decision for the captain. In reality most guys that take airplanes with deferred APU's get roped into a bad situation despite their best intentions. For example how many have had the ground air/huffer lined up to only have it crap out while boarding is taking place. The ramp promises to get another one ASAP but two minutes turns into fifteen and then fifteen turns into thirty. Now you are boarded up and can not even get an engine started because the one working huffer in your zone is out of gas. So, the crew switches gears and starts demanding an air cart or you must deplane. Then someone realizes that your particular aircraft is not set up for ground air. While you are organizing a deplane the flight attendant informs you that a couple of the passengers are feeling faint and might need EMS. You call EMS and they go to C23 instead of D23. You start deplaning the passengers on your own and the gate cusses you out in front of the passengers. The FO hollers down the steps that flight control is on the radio wanting to know why you are deplaning. You run up the steps and tell flight control that yes you are deplaning because the passengers are getting sick and EMS is no where to be found. The dispatcher tells you to call the chief pilot. The chief pilot argues with you and then suddenly agrees with you when you say EMS is on the way. You read in the morning report the next day that you were belligerant to the dispatcher and refused to take an airplane that other crews had already operated that day. Sounds way too familiar I bet! This is the way a perfectly normal day turns bad real fast.

I was riding on the ATR that returned for a possible heart attack. The crew delayed boarding 1.5 hours to "cool" the aircraft. The sun had already set. We boarded up and it took the ramp forever to finish loading the bags despite the extra 1.5 hours they had. We then hit the money line. The captain ran both engines but the full airplane was like a sauna. The flight attendants passed out water and some passengers poured water on blankets and hung them around their necks. After a passenger issue the crew heading back in. Despite the best efforts of the crew it took twenty minutes to get parked. Amazingly enough the three passengers that felt ill wanted to continue after they were cooled down in the terminal. Too late, the crew had enough and called it quits for the day. All this on an airplane that is designed to operate with no APU!

 

[Lars!]

About 50 posts ago someone asked about insubordination. Insubordination has a very specific (narrow) legal definition. The reasons crew sked, dispatch, CP, etc. ask that question with that particular wording "Are you resusing...." is that is the standard phrase to begin documentation of a case of insubordination. Every pilot should go into CYA mode when they hear those words. Forget about pax, your sked, etc. You now have been put in a box that there is only one way out of.

Insubordination is a deliberate and inexcusable refusal to obey a reasonable order which relates to an employee's job function. For an insubordination charge to be valid, at least the following 3 things have to happen:

1. The action you a being asked to do must be required as a condition of employment with the company.

2. Your employer has to state that non-compliance will result in discipline.

3. Your employer has to correct any unsafe or illegal conditions.

Number 3 is the big safety net for pilots. Flying fatigued is illegal per FAR 61, therefore they can't win an insubordination charge against you for that. Flying an aircraft in a condition that has killed or injured people in the past (non-APU on a very hot day) is not reasonable, and furthermore the FAR's are quite specific that BOTH the dispatcher and the Captain have to agree to all MEL's (that's what you're doing when you sign the release, by the way.) If you don't have a reasonable belief that the operation can be conducted *safely* (key word) with a given MEL then it is illegal for you to take the flight. Therefore it is not possible to successfully prosecute an insubordination charge against you.

Someone posted the perfect response earlier:

"I am not refusing to work. However, I cannot accept this assignment because (blah blah it's hot, unreasonable, illegal., whatever) If you can correct that condition I will perform the assignment."

 

[Maiko]

Wow, this has gone a long way.

Interesting reading with all the opinions and facts given.

More than I would have imagined.

Finally some came up with the answer to the origianl question.

Peace
Mike

 

[Maiko]

Duplicate

 

[Palerider957]

I remember in the Brasilia days, we had to take pictures of a thermometer in front of the altitude alerter to get a plane serviced. There was some kind of limitation of no more than 100F in the cockpit--which was regularly exceeded. This is what it took to get ASA to even look at airplanes. NO ONE cared abour passengers....ASA Sweaty Faces, Going Places!

Of course, we were only one year into contract negotiations..........

 

[Sam Snead]

Has anyone refused to take an airplane (like the 1900) that doesn't have an APU installed?


It sounds riduculous, but if you apply the "I might get in trouble if someone dies from heat stroke" logic, couldn't someone also get sick or die from heat on the non-APU airplane? If you ignore the aircraft type and have a notion that it's "just too hot in the cabin" wouldn't the situation in the non-APU beater aircraft be just as unacceptable?

On a side not I would bet that a B1900C cabin is smaller in volume per passenger than any RJ, and therefore hotter, all other things being equal.

I'm in no way siding with management. It's just that there are plenty of 121 ops in summer without any ground airconditioning. There were a few times where sweat was running down my face in what seemed like rivers, waiting to start up.

Does anyone know of a specific instance where someone croaked from heat in a NON APU aircraft?

 

[NuGuy]

Has anyone refused to take an airplane (like the 1900) that doesn't have an APU installed?

On a side not I would bet that a B1900C cabin is smaller in volume per passenger than any RJ, and therefore hotter, all other things being equal.

But in this case, things are not equal. The 1900 not only has an air cycle machine for cooling (and press), but a vapor cycle system that cools recirc air. The 1900 has two absolutely HUGE recirc fans under the floor, and will blow you dry on the low setting (the high setting puts out a TON of air)

The whole system is wickedly effective once the right engine is running (where the VC compressor is), and by the time you get to the end of the runway, you can usually hang meat in the cabin.

Most turbojets don't have a similar system, and usually rely on air cycle cooling only, which is marginal, even on a good day. The key to an effective air cycle system is LOTS and LOTS of APU air, and most just can't do it on a hot day, because the bleed air is modulated to maintain the APU EGU within limits.

Nu

 

[indianboy7]

But in this case, things are not equal. The 1900 not only has an air cycle machine for cooling (and press), but a vapor cycle system that cools recirc air. The 1900 has two absolutely HUGE recirc fans under the floor, and will blow you dry on the low setting (the high setting puts out a TON of air)

The whole system is wickedly effective once the right engine is running (where the VC compressor is), and by the time you get to the end of the runway, you can usually hang meat in the cabin.

Most turbojets don't have a similar system, and usually rely on air cycle cooling only, which is marginal, even on a good day. The key to an effective air cycle system is LOTS and LOTS of APU air, and most just can't do it on a hot day, because the bleed air is modulated to maintain the APU EGU within limits.

Nu

this guy's right....rode in a 1900 out of phx the other day and it was 100 or so outside. When I first got in the plane, it was hotter than hell. About a minute after the engines were started, it was starting to get comfortable........better than the a/c on the ground in the brasilia for sure...

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Does anyone know of a specific instance where someone croaked from heat in a NON APU aircraft?

Happened at ASA in 2002 in an APU Inop -200. 45 minute taxi-out in the middle of summer. An elderly passenger started complaining about not feeling well and the crew returned to the gate. Passenger got off the airplane, refused medical assistance, and died a few minutes later inside the concourse. Of course, the argument could be made that it was the passenger's fault for refusing medical assistance, but then again, the cause of death was a massive stroke brought on by the temperature.