ASA: Captain's Authority vs. Insubordination?

[JustaNumber]

It seems like every day around here I have to argue with someone about refusing an APU-inop aircraft when it's hot outside (which is basically March through October in ATL). The company seems to like their magic number of 85 degrees, above which it's okay to refuse and below which they give you one heck of a hard time.

With seemingly more and more aircraft out there without APU's (or am I just unlucky?), what kind of experiences have the rest of you had with refusing one of these sweatboxes when it's less than 85 degrees? We all know it can become sweltering in the cabin even if it's reasonably cool outside. I'd love to refuse one when it's 70 and humid as heck, but when can the company accuse you of insubordination?

 

[DrProc]

When is the air conditioning on in the management offices? If the A/C is on in the offices, then all APU's must work.

 

[NuGuy]

Here's what you do:

1. Refuse aircraft.
2. Be forced to talk to CP after arguing with dispatch. Still refuse A/C
3. Be removed from trip. Go home and grieve.
4. Win grievance, collect pay.
5. Repeat steps 1-4. This time get suspended. Take time off, win grievance, enjoy paid time off.
6. Repeat steps 1-4. This time get fired. Enjoy time off, win grievance, get paid.
7. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Nu

 

[geardown]

I agree with DrProc. You are the final authority period, Just use good judgement. Would the POI agree with your decision? Who gives a rats assa what anyone at the ASA grey house of dung has to say. If it is too hot it is too hot.

 

[vtchaz]

Spoiled

It seems like every day around here I have to argue with someone about refusing an APU-inop aircraft when it's hot outside (which is basically March through October in ATL). The company seems to like their magic number of 85 degrees, above which it's okay to refuse and below which they give you one heck of a hard time.

With seemingly more and more aircraft out there without APU's (or am I just unlucky?), what kind of experiences have the rest of you had with refusing one of these sweatboxes when it's less than 85 degrees? We all know it can become sweltering in the cabin even if it's reasonably cool outside. I'd love to refuse one when it's 70 and humid as heck, but when can the company accuse you of insubordination?

Ever consider all the aircraft out there with no APU at all? Should they refuse to fly them at all during the summer?

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Ever consider all the aircraft out there with no APU at all? Should they refuse to fly them at all during the summer?

Um yeah I'm pretty sure you can't cram 53 people into those type aircraft.

 

[cbrown1]

Um yeah I'm pretty sure you can't cram 53 people into those type aircraft.

The ATR holds 70 and 71 with a jumpseater.

 

[JustaNumber]

Okay, let me ask another way. What's the lowest temperature you've refused an aircraft at, and how did the situation play out?

Also, if it's over 85 degrees, how come we have to refuse it at all, vs flight being cancelled automatically? (Fine, stupid question, I fly for ASA).

 

[jehtplane]

It seems like every day around here I have to argue with someone about refusing an APU-inop aircraft when it's hot outside (which is basically March through October in ATL). The company seems to like their magic number of 85 degrees, above which it's okay to refuse and below which they give you one heck of a hard time.

With seemingly more and more aircraft out there without APU's (or am I just unlucky?), what kind of experiences have the rest of you had with refusing one of these sweatboxes when it's less than 85 degrees? We all know it can become sweltering in the cabin even if it's reasonably cool outside. I'd love to refuse one when it's 70 and humid as heck, but when can the company accuse you of insubordination?

I have run into this before when I was with ASA, it depends on the Chief Pilot, right now with the ones that are in there you are screwed. Can you justify not taking it, does the outstation have a working GPU and Air-cart? Get an Air-cart on the airplane to cool it down for awhile before boarding. Make sure they have a working Huffer or start bottle by the airplane before boarding. If you refuse, just have your ducks in a row.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

The ATR holds 70 and 71 with a jumpseater.

Yeah but it's ugly!

 

[JustaNumber]

Ever consider all the aircraft out there with no APU at all? Should they refuse to fly them at all during the summer?

I'm not sure how other aircraft are set up, but the CRJ200 packs are pretty much useless on 10th stage engine bleed air only at idle power. Throw in hot sweaty bodies, add sunlight, high humidity, lots of electronics, absolutely no ventilation, and plenty of B.O. (and that's just in the cockpit), and it's a real party.

 

[wms]

A decision aid I use is if I was commuting home as a passenger, would I tolerate the heat. That helps me to keep it real and make a decision based on what is the right thing to do, and not what gets me canceled and sent back to the crash pad. I hate to say it, but I've seen captains cancel flights to get out of work rather than because of pax concerns.

 

[Flying-Corporal]

I fly Saab that doesn't have an APU. There is nothing worse than wait for a pushback with the doors closed when OAT > 95F. I am still waiting for the day when someone will pass out or gets a heat stroke.

I think all transport airplanes should have an a/c.

 

[Maiko]

I have to agree with several replies reqarding this issue. It needs to be in the best interest in pax, not crew comfort. Would you wish to be stranded somewhere, like maybe your comute home because a crew refused to fly becuase its hot? I would have to say No. Though I do understand the long days that crews put in, no matter whom they fly for (commuter wise), it is just plain uncomfortable. Me, I would suffer 110 degrees in the cabin as long as I knew I was going home, or anywhere else for that matter.

Mike

 

[JustaNumber]

I am still waiting for the day when someone will pass out or gets a heat stroke.

I actually saw the ASA morning report from about a month ago, that reported just such an occurrence. Apparently, an ASA aircraft returned to the gate after a passenger had a heart attack. EMS personnel attended to the passenger at the gate, and he claimed that the heat on the aircraft was responsible. It gets better, though. While the EMS personnel were on the aircraft, another passenger passed out from the heat!

You would think the threat of lawsuits would be enough to affect a better no-APU policy, but this is ASA.

I agree with the last poster about looking out for the needs of the pax. But this incident factors into that decision.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not sure why this method is a big secret. When a pilot refuses to fly an aircraft management gets nervous because they don't want refusal attitude to spread. so they come down hard on a pilot who refuses... It's the whole RLA...

However, if a pilot says, "I'm not taking that aircraft- it is too hot".
Management asks, "Are you refusing"
[now this is where 90% of us get sideways becuase we feel we are right (and we are!) in refusing, however, management fears refusal attitude so they get nasty. however....]

Pilots says with a "No, of course I am not refusing, I'll be happy to operate the aircraft....... when the cabin tempature is below 85F" (or insert any given problem with aircraft instead of cabin temp.

 

[AZ Typed]

I can't help myself: Been down the 121 road in the stupid -200. If the APU don't work - what the &$*@ are you going to do about it? You can play the stupid game of refusing the airplane. You'll get nowhere in the end. Get the people to their destination. If they don't like it, they can fly someone else, charter their own jet, or take the bus. If you're getting this worked up over an APU it's time to find another job. No matter 121, 135, 91...blah blah blah - fly the airplane to the destination. Your payscale doesn't compensate you appropriately to deal with this BS, wouldn't you agree?

AZT

 

[OPECJet]

Doesn't the ATR have that prop brake doo dad on the right motor to use it as an APU?

Arbitrators will do two things very rarely. Rarely will they re-instate a pilot after failing a training event, and rarely will they allow the company to question the authority of the captain. It is a rare occasion that they side with the company after terminating a captain for using good judgement. Not saying it can't happen, but chances are good the company will F off if you hold your ground.

 

[Airboss]

CAPT SPOKE WITH CHIEF PILOT C... AND REFUSED A/C 9XX FOR 4XXX ATL-XXX-ATL. CAPT STATED HE WOULD OPERATE THE FLT AFTER DARK. THE OVERALL OPERATION CAN NOT ABSORB THAT KIND OF DELAY DUE TO ZERO SWAP CAPABILITIES. ALL ATL RON A/C MUST RON TONIGHT. TEMP IN ATL 30 C TEMP IN FWA 22 C.

A/C HAS OPERATED MYR CRW AND FLO TODAY WITH APU DEFER.

Here is the problem, 1 capt stands up and gets heat for it due to other crews taking the airplane.
I'm not saying never to take APU inop airplane, but if it is too hot, dont take it.
Call ground control and see how long the taxi times are. If over 20 mins, let chief pilot know its too long.

FO's if you deny and APU inop airplane, write it in the can so that the next crew will not take it.​

 

[Sinca3]

I´ve refused 5 airplanes this summer. Each time was told no other aircraft and I must call chief pilot. Not once have I backed off and had my moind changed for refusing and aircraft, although they have tried very very hard. Magically though another aircraft becomes available for me and my crew.
After the last time of being told to call the chief and discussing this with the ATL base chief Bob, I will never again call a chief pilot!

 

[av8er2]

With the loads out there today it gets hot fast in the back.

We all need to stand up for what we think. If you think it is too hot then don't take it. If more pilots call in fatigue and called BS at this place, maybe we could get somewhere.

Do your part and stand up. ALPA alone is not going to fix this place.

I think ASA may be done before too long so what do you have to lose?

 

[atrdriver]

The ATR holds 70 and 71 with a jumpseater.

And you have #2 engine to run in Hotel. As well as the air carts. If you can't get an air cart hooked up on an ATR and it becomes heat soaked, then refuse it.

 

[atrdriver]

I have to agree with several replies reqarding this issue. It needs to be in the best interest in pax, not crew comfort. Would you wish to be stranded somewhere, like maybe your comute home because a crew refused to fly becuase its hot? I would have to say No. Though I do understand the long days that crews put in, no matter whom they fly for (commuter wise), it is just plain uncomfortable. Me, I would suffer 110 degrees in the cabin as long as I knew I was going home, or anywhere else for that matter.

Mike

Maybe you would, and you may indeed be in the kind of shape where you won't have a major health issue. But there are 50 other people on that airplane, some old, some babies, etc. Can that 85 year old woman take 95+ degrees in the cabin for 2 hours? Can the baby? If one of them develops heatstroke, or worse, dies, do you think the company is going to back the pilot? No, they are going to say "I don't know WHY he accepted a plane that couldn't be kept cool." So when the lawsuit comes, it is coming after YOU.

 

[atrdriver]

I simply say no, I am not refusing to take this flight. I am refusing to take this airplane. Get me another airplane and I'll give as many rides as they want. But I am not taking a chance on killing my passengers because ASA can't keep their equipment operating.

 

[rickair7777]

Mesa regularly operates 200's with no APU in PHX in the middle of the summer...temperatures are routinely ridiculous, 85 degrees is a GOOD day...

They did kill a pax a couple years ago (allgedly from heat-related illness) and everybody got sued, so pilots do get pretty touchy as temps climb into the 90's.

But I guess it's a dry heat...

 

[FmrFreightDog]

When you are deciding whether or not to take an a/c with a deferred APU in the middle of the summer, keep this in mind...

IF... you taxi out and sit in a money line in Atlanta for 45 minutes, and...

IF... you happen to have a few elderly people and a few infants on the airplane, and....

IF... one of them happens to be succeptible to heat stroke and dies before you can get back to the gate (and this HAS happened... in the airline world... AT ASA... in 2002...)

How are you going to feel about the fact that person died because you caved under pressure to take an aircraft that was unfit for passenger service due to environmental conditions just because somebody put the squeeze on you? If you can get past that sticking point, how do you think the passenger's family's lawyer is going to feel about the fact that you took an aircraft that was unfit for passenger service due to environmental conditions just because somebody put the squeeze on you? I would advise you to ask the ASA captain that this happened to in 2002, but he's no longer here. In fact, he's no longer in the industry, directly because of this event.

SAY NO! I have many times and I will continue to do so any time I feel the environmental conditions inside the aircraft pose a safety hazard to a passenger. I've probably refused an aircraft for an inop APU 10 times since I've been here. I know I've done it twice this summer. I have never so much as heard a peep out of the Chief Pilots office about it.

And another thing.... Flight Control has ZERO authority to tell you to contact a Chief Pilot. If you wish to contact a Chief Pilot for clarification on an issue such as this, I suggest FL or BD. Forget CC, KR, or CV... they WILL NOT back you up. However, just because a Flight Control sector manager (ahem... Stacey Hubachek...) tells you that you have to call a Chief Pilot doesn't make it so. Captains! Start acting like Captains! Make your decisions responsibly and be willing to stand by them. If the Chief Pilots Office wants to discuss your decision with you, I'm quite sure they will call you.

In short... make you decisions with the best interests and the safety of the passengers in mind. If there's a disagreement as to what the proper course of action is, keep in mind that you as PIC trump the dispatcher/sector manager every time (and that's a DIRECT quote from the guy who trains ASA dispatchers...). Joint responsibility is all well and good when it comes to paperwork and planning, but the second that airplane leaves the blocks, it's your ass on the line. Don't be bullied into a violation or a lawsuit. For that matter, don't be bullied into doing something you will personally regret.

Ok, end of my Vodka-induced rant..... almost... Captains... Be F'in Captains. You guys I hear on 131.15 practically begging the dispatcher or Maintenance Control to make a decision for you pretty much make me sick. Use your head, make a decision, CONSULT (don't ask) the appropriate parties, then carry out your decision... It's really that simple.

Oh yeah, and stop F'in taking airplanes with broke APUs in the middle of the summer. Next guy that sticks me with an inop APU in Corpus/McAllen/Houston in the middle of the summer is going to get a Mesaba-style smackdown (courtesy of my F/O, of course... a $20 bribe goes a long way for a first year F/O)

 

[Airline RC]

FreightDog.....Thank you .... well said....you da MAN !

You just ended the need for any further discussion of this thread.

 

[Sinca3]

Nice post....thanks Dog!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

FreightDog.....Thank you .... well said....you da MAN !

You just ended the need for any further discussion of this thread.

Thank you. I have been known to be occasionally coherent in my alcohol-induced hazes. Glad this was one of those moments!

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Do you guys not have ground air? Hook it up, take a delay, and let the a/c cool off. Who cares how hot/humid it is outside. All I care about is the temperature of the cabin.