ASA ALPA negotiations

[AVoiceOfReason]

OK ALPA guys, I have a few questions regarding the talks being recessed. I'm starting a new thread because the other one has drifted too far from the original issue. As I read the update from ALPA, it appears to me that the current management proposal on the 700 is a paycut, but is more than what the SKYW pay is for the 700. Is this correct? Also, is the strike by ALPA employees having an affect on negotiations. It must be hard to get things done if the ALPA staff is on strike. Last question - it looks like management has dropped their proposal to modify our cancellation pay and underblock pay, is that true?

 

[Sinca3]

1) Yes...If my math is right it would mean a 18 capt would top out @ $97.57 as opposed to Skywests' 18yr capt @ $93........BUT what does the "below current rates" mean in their proposal? Also this isn't just about 70 seat capt rates!! The 70 fo's would be $38.25 after the pay cuts vs. Skywest $40.
The company is trying to appease the majority of the pilot group, so they increase rates (if you want to call it that) for the ATR/CR2 Capt's and hope we will sell the rest of the pilot group down the river.

2) No.....It didn't affect us and they have been back to work for some time now!

3) Don't see that mentioned anywhere in the handout.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

1) Yes...If my math is right it would mean a 18 capt would top out @ $97.57 as opposed to Skywests' 18yr capt @ $93........BUT what does the "below current rates" mean in their proposal? Also this isn't just about 70 seat capt rates!! The 70 fo's would be $38.25 after the pay cuts vs. Skywest $40.
The company is trying to appease the majority of the pilot group, so they increase rates (if you want to call it that) for the ATR/CR2 Capt's and hope we will sell the rest of the pilot group down the river.

2) No.....It didn't affect us and they have been back to work for some time now!

3) Don't see that mentioned anywhere in the handout.

1. That's what I figured on the rates also. I'm actually surprised that management has come up this high on the 70 seat rates.

2. Why haven't we heard about the strike being over? I received one of those ALPA blastmails telling us that the staff went on strike, but I haven't received anything telling me they settled. Do you have a source, or is there anyway to find that out on the ALPA website?

3. I don't see it on the handout either and that is why I asked. If those are the open issues, it appears that cancellation pay and underblock aren't open issues anymore.

Thanks for the update.

 

[FSB99]

2. i got a blastmail from our mec quite a while ago, notifying us the strike was over.. good question, though, i don't remember seeing one from national.

 

[atrdriver]

1. Basically, while the 50 and ATR captains get a very small increase, the 70 captains take a cut, while the FO's either get no increase for the life of the contract or take a large cut up front, then no increase for the life of the contract.

2. I have not seen it from National, but the strike up there lasted only a few days, and they are back at work now.

 

[Lolikoka]

What are they up to?

I don't understand why management would stick it to the F/Os by cutting their pay. I would have thought management would consider the F/Os the easy "yes" votes with a small pay raise for F/Os and the carrot of growth if the captains get juiced with pay cuts on the 700 and only modest raises on the 200. The best way to reach the majority of pilots is to propose modest pay raises on the 200 for everyone.

I still think management is screwing around right now - ultimately they'll have to offer us the same as Skywest - at a minimum. They are probably just trying to lower our expectations by proposing pay cuts and/or stagnant rates, knowing that the rates will ultimately be the same as Skywest, but they don't want to get there too quickly.

I have bills to pay - I'll get my money one way or another.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

2 months ago I watched Jerry Atkin during his road show tell the pilot group that he was unaware that most ASA pilots would be happy with the Skywest contract.

 

[Tomct]

Yeah Stiff, we would be unhappy. I am not going to fly all of the airplanes for ONE RATE! That is suicide and you know it. The 50's are going to be heading to the desert as FAST as they can send them if we do that!! NOT SMART!!!!

 

[USCtrojan]

Negotiations

Hi all:

In the past I've advocated taking the paycut and live to fight another day. That is, until the press release (DOT stats) proving how profitable we are. I have a new take on it, all over. First of all, I want to thank all ASA pilots for your resolve. I feel I work among some of the finest professionals in the industry and am very proud to be associated with you. I think we are a united pilot group, some may have you believe otherwise.

Where to start? I think management royally screwed the pooch. ASA management, now Skywest, has waited too long. They are now pressing for paycuts and a number of other concessions thinking we will sell off for growth. I've been here a decade and as long as I've been here, ASA pilots have never sold out for growth. I'd like to thank our MEC for that as well. We have leverage. Delta just voted in their new TA and Skywest wants to implement their new business plan as a result. Except we have no contract, and no contract with concessions. The industry is about to start booming again. The Economy is on the upswing. ASA is the most PROFITABLE airline in the U.S. and ASA management seriously believes we will take a concessionary contract for the next 5 years? Not gonna happen. Gerry G. over at Delta wants airplanes in the sky to connect to his widebodies. I would think he wants nothing to do with a strike.
And pressure will be put on Jerry A. to keep airplanes in the sky with a looming strike. Timing is everything as they say, so let's thank ASA management for their timing. It really is because of their procrastination we have come full circle.

So the question is, will you strike for what we are trying to achieve? The answer for me is yes. Burn it down if you have to, but a concessionary contract is one I will not sign off on in this economy.

Trojan

 

[14RF SUX]

I'm voting yes to the strike. Pay me what I'm worth, and buy your own damn airplanes.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Yeah Stiff, we would be unhappy. I am not going to fly all of the airplanes for ONE RATE! That is suicide and you know it. The 50's are going to be heading to the desert as FAST as they can send them if we do that!! NOT SMART!!!!

To explain further, I didn't recognize too many 700 guys, so most of the people that were interested in SKW's contract were interested in the pay raise and trip and duty rig stuff. Outside of the 700 paycut, they pretty much have us beat in every area.

 

[shamrock]

Hey USC, are you in Salt Lake?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

The ASA pilots will ultimately take concessions to bring their pay in line with the rest of the industry. The rjdc will claim that they have been cheated once again, and will file a lawsuit against the SKYW pilots claiming they have caused their problems, and chaos will ensue.
Anyone that has not realized yet that the rjdc is a cancer to this industry is surely uneducated!

 

[Bizjet]

Hi all:

In the past I've advocated taking the paycut and live to fight another day. That is, until the press release (DOT stats) proving how profitable we are. I have a new take on it, all over. First of all, I want to thank all ASA pilots for your resolve. I feel I work among some of the finest professionals in the industry and am very proud to be associated with you. I think we are a united pilot group, some may have you believe otherwise.

Where to start? I think management royally screwed the pooch. ASA management, now Skywest, has waited too long. They are now pressing for paycuts and a number of other concessions thinking we will sell off for growth. I've been here a decade and as long as I've been here, ASA pilots have never sold out for growth. I'd like to thank our MEC for that as well. We have leverage. Delta just voted in their new TA and Skywest wants to implement their new business plan as a result. Except we have no contract, and no contract with concessions. The industry is about to start booming again. The Economy is on the upswing. ASA is the most PROFITABLE airline in the U.S. and ASA management seriously believes we will take a concessionary contract for the next 5 years? Not gonna happen. Gerry G. over at Delta wants airplanes in the sky to connect to his widebodies. I would think he wants nothing to do with a strike.
And pressure will be put on Jerry A. to keep airplanes in the sky with a looming strike. Timing is everything as they say, so let's thank ASA management for their timing. It really is because of their procrastination we have come full circle.

So the question is, will you strike for what we are trying to achieve? The answer for me is yes. Burn it down if you have to, but a concessionary contract is one I will not sign off on in this economy.

Trojan

Great post. I think our pilots are second to none. Those that want to cave are certainly in a small minority. Our MEC has done a great job of never entertaining concessions for growth. If Delta has learned nothing else they understand that the Comair strike cost them 750 million. They can't survive another strike in their present financial condition. I believe a Greenstein call to Atkin would be short and to the point.

 

[IFLYASA]

The ASA pilots will ultimately take concessions to bring their pay in line with the rest of the industry. The rjdc will claim that they have been cheated once again, and will file a lawsuit against the SKYW pilots claiming they have caused their problems, and chaos will ensue.
Anyone that has not realized yet that the rjdc is a cancer to this industry is surely uneducated!

Scope

ASA pilots will NOT take a concession. I'm not sure what's in your mouthwash. Maybe you should switch to Listerine.

 

[Tomct]

USC, I am glad to see that you have FINALLY seen the light! Now if the minority of our group (Joe, 79 and Oh) could also overcome their SHORT SIGHTEDNESS and join the rest of us!! I am READY! There is NO WAY that I am taking a paycut!!!!!!!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

USC, I am glad to see that you have FINALLY seen the light! Now if the minority of our group (Joe, 79 and Oh) could also overcome their SHORT SIGHTEDNESS and join the rest of us!! I am READY! There is NO WAY that I am taking a paycut!!!!!!!!!

Tomct, I know I won't change your mind, but let me correct you. If I was being "SHORT SIGHTED", I would agree with you 100%. I actually believe a real honest to god strike threat would produce an industry leading contract - including 70 seat rates. However the "LONG VIEW SIGHTED" part of me believes it would be the beginning of a long, slow, and painful death of ASA in the portfolio. I am more interested in the LONG VIEW than I am in the SHORT VIEW.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Tomct, I know I won't change your mind, but let me correct you. If I was being "SHORT SIGHTED", I would agree with you 100%. I actually believe a real honest to god strike threat would produce an industry leading contract - including 70 seat rates. However the "LONG VIEW SIGHTED" part of me believes it would be the beginning of a long, slow, and painful death of ASA in the portfolio. I am more interested in the LONG VIEW than I am in the SHORT VIEW.

Since I've been ordered to play nice with you...

"Joe", why don't you just attend some LEC meetings and make your voice heard? Your "anonymous" whining here does NOTHING. Call your MEC members who you love to hate and take charge.

I'll agree with you that our MEC has been putting out too little, too late. I'll agree that ALPA National would send us down the river in two seconds if they thought they could get away with it. I'll agree that there are certain "personalities" in the MEC that have issues. But they are there fighting for us every day, and they were elected by a sound majority. While certain 112 reps may have personality issues, they still have a huge support base.

When you get a sound majority supporting you, then you will have the right to impose your changes. Gather your troops and start a recall if you think you have the votes. I suspect you don't or you wouldn't be whining here every day.

Now you're on vacation. Get you butt on that boat, crack a beer and relax!

 

[ohplease!]

USC, I am glad to see that you have FINALLY seen the light! Now if the minority of our group (Joe, 79 and Oh) could also overcome their SHORT SIGHTEDNESS and join the rest of us!! I am READY! There is NO WAY that I am taking a paycut!!!!!!!!!

short sighted is you guy's being hung up on a $ figure. To a certain extent, $ figures don't mean much. Its the trip/duty rigs and QOL issues that alpa needs to concentrate on. Actually go an speak to someone at SKYW and see how much better their deal is than ours. Then maybe you'll rethink your position.

They may fly both planes for the same $ but, they still make more money per year and have equal if not better QOL than we do.

Also, the whole "I need to get payed more 'cause its got more seats" is just dumb. There are more important issues.

 

["GO AROUND"]

You all forget that the company is not offering the kind of contract that would allow a SKW kind of situation at ASA. They are demanding a concessionary contract and not just in the payrate on the 70.

Loss of underblock pay is a huge paycut for me a yr cause they have said HE$$ no to rigs. SKW has rigs that help them make money, but not for our contract.

Talk about short sightedness. You guys are only arguing about the 70 seat cut and there is so much more to it than that. Section 1 is huge for me. They won't commit to us then they can stick it.

 

[COOPERVANE]

When I first started at ASA, I used to hear captains say "burn the place down!" and "I'll shut this place down before I take a pay cut!" and frankly it alarmed me that someone could be so short sighted.

But as I witnessed more and more of the "ASA vision", the ridiculous way the pilot group is treated here, while posting impressive profits, I too have decided I'd rather see it go away than to take cuts.

I understand the "shortsighted" aspect of this view, but the bottom line is, if you want to pay someone less than I currently make for my job, then they can HAVE it. I'll return to my former career and fly for fun. I'm tired of this company anyway. No chest thumping, just the truth.

I totally agree it is not about hourly rates. We would we better off with current/lower pay with rigs. After all, everybody I know said they don't care about pay so much as QOL issues.

But guess what? MGMT IS NOT offering ANY rigs or any logical bonus plan AT ALL! So where is "the vision"

Make sure you are in good standing with ALPA, and that your contact information is correct, strike ballots are coming but only if all your info is correct. Supposedly going out the 16th or so.

Vote your conscience. I know for me it is a YES

COOP

 

[79%N1]

Agree Go Around, section one is very important. Remember, Mesa and CHQ had to buy good scope provisions and accepted less in other parts of their contract, and we all scorn them for that. They felt it was important, and we may face the same decision soon. However, management has to give us something in return for possibly taking less on the 700, and giving up premium. That would have to be a rig of some sort. Negotiations are about compromise, right? How bad do they want those 'concessions'? I, personally, would give up a few bucks an hour on the 70 (yes, I am currently on it) in exchange for a strong section one, improved scheduling/reserve rules, and some good rigs and profit sharing. (Not tied to performance, but tied to profits!)

 

[79%N1]

.

.

I totally agree it is not about hourly rates. We would we better off with current/lower pay with rigs. After all, everybody I know said they don't care about pay so much as QOL issues.

But guess what? MGMT IS NOT offering ANY rigs or any logical bonus plan AT ALL! So where is "the vision"

COOP

Coop, of course they are not offering them. We need to negotiate that. Give and take. If they want the lower rates, they have to give up something. That could be a rig of some sort. We all need to decide what we want, and try to compromise. We want it all, they want to give up nothing. That is normal.

 

["GO AROUND"]

I'm with ya 79%.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Coop, of course they are not offering them. We need to negotiate that. Give and take. If they want the lower rates, they have to give up something. That could be a rig of some sort. We all need to decide what we want, and try to compromise. We want it all, they want to give up nothing. That is normal.

I totally agree, but what future scheduled negotiating dates do you see? It seems that we are the only ones compromising so far. Reference to our first offers vs. current offers

 

[ohplease!]

I totally agree, but what future scheduled negotiating dates do you see? It seems that we are the only ones compromising so far. Reference to our first offers vs. current offers

that is NOT correct. The company and alpa have both given (from what I have seen, the company has given in on much more than alpa) in some areas. alpa has NOT asked for rigs formally. Don't expect SkyW to just give them to us. alpa is going to have to come off the pay rates the are demandiing and ask for the rigs.

BTW, if you are as unhappy as you claim to be, please go ahead back to your former line of work and leave this to those of us who are here and like it. No need to be angry about it, just realize its not what you thought it would be and chalk it up to experience.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

. alpa has NOT asked for rigs formally.

Incorrect.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

that is NOT correct. The company and alpa have both given (from what I have seen, the company has given in on much more than alpa) in some areas. alpa has NOT asked for rigs formally. Don't expect SkyW to just give them to us. alpa is going to have to come off the pay rates the are demandiing and ask for the rigs.

BTW, if you are as unhappy as you claim to be, please go ahead back to your former line of work and leave this to those of us who are here and like it. No need to be angry about it, just realize its not what you thought it would be and chalk it up to experience.

You are not well informed. Go call a p2p and get your facts straight.

 

[ohplease!]

You are not well informed. Go call a p2p and get your facts straight.

there has been NO formal WRITTEN request for trip/duty rigs. I don't need to talk to our useless P2P persons to know that. If I'm wrong, show me the document. Otherwise STFU!

 

[atrdriver]

Rigs are on the table. That is from the chair of the CNC. If you dont believe him I dont know what to tell you. But of course, you know all there is to know about everything.