ASA ALPA dues

[SkyNation]

gosh, sounds pretty good. how can we get signed up for ALPA at my airline?

oh wait, our OC is already signing people up on their own so that they can show inflated numbers to ALPA national.

 

[Turkey Shoot]

Take a look at Miller v. ALPA brought by the Delta pilots over ALPA's finances. ALPA paid close to a million to keep from opening its books.

I'm so frustrated that our CNC and MEC is screwed in our current contract negotiations because of ALPA's scope and representational failures. ASA / Skywest is a financially healthy company. The reason why we are looking at concessions is because ALPA has encouraged the proliferation of Alter Ego airlines with pilots who will replace anyone who takes a stand.

Duane Woerth comes in to our Family Awareness Dinner and talkas about Independence Air and Mesaba being signs of ALPA's success. What the hack the the man talking about? Full pay to the last day is not success, unless ALPA's versions of "success" is watching small jet carriers that they never cared about representing go away. I consider success having a job that pays decently.

Even Lee Moak, an ALPA true blue radicial by most people's standards, ended up presiding over a hugely concessionary deal at Delta. AARrrrrrggghhhhh

Our dues are wasted. Not because ALPA is a bad idea, or bad organization. Our dues are wasted because the wrong people are running this union off a cliff.

I am all for a union. We need one at this level due to the type of job, i.e. highly specialzed. What I am not in favor of, is the way in which they conduct their business of manipulating it's dues paying members.

At my last company, when attending union meetings, I almost expected the guys to jump up and start yelling, "Seig Heil!" Take lots of pilots that are unhappy and feed the fire so they are really angry and then ask them to make a good dicision. Since when has anyone made a good choice when they were pissed off?

Please don't get me wrong. We do need some sort of protection from the company but we need to step back and take a good look at what the union is doing and how they instruct the guys we vote for, to conduct business.

 

[atrdriver]

I am all for a union. We need one at this level due to the type of job, i.e. highly specialzed. What I am not in favor of, is the way in which they conduct their business of manipulating it's dues paying members.

At my last company, when attending union meetings, I almost expected the guys to jump up and start yelling, "Seig Heil!" Take lots of pilots that are unhappy and feed the fire so they are really angry and then ask them to make a good dicision. Since when has anyone made a good choice when they were pissed off?

Please don't get me wrong. We do need some sort of protection from the company but we need to step back and take a good look at what the union is doing and how they instruct the guys we vote for, to conduct business.

So I will ask again. What is to stop JA from walking into his office one day and saying "all pilots will take a 20% paycut, and we are eliminating all rigs"? Right now, there is nothing stopping that from happening, except the threat of an ALPA drive on the property. Take away unions, and there is nothing stopping every airline management from doing the same thing. ALPA isn't perfect, just like any other organization. Yes I believe that they need to be help accountable, to the majors and the regionals. But right now they are the best that we have, and overall they do a lot more good than bad.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Buy an good jobs lately?

Even the ramp is stooping to an all time low hiring someone like you that barely has a fifth grade education.


Don't you have airplanes to park and unload? Or maybe a few lav dumps to do?

Wait, I apologize, that is an insult to our rampers and ground personel. Even they would be embarassed to work with you.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Here's a grand idea...ASA ditches ALPA and joins SKYW to form a new, in-house union! Hooray! Puppies for everyone!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Here's a grand idea...ASA ditches ALPA and joins SKYW to form a new, in-house union! Hooray! Puppies for everyone!

Yeah, and in-house union. That's a terrific idea. We could have pizza party at the end of the year.

I like the way SAPA really represents the pilots for management. Thay are true pilot advocates. There legal and aeromedical departments are first rate.

 

[atrdriver]

Here's a grand idea...ASA ditches ALPA and joins SKYW to form a new, in-house union! Hooray! Puppies for everyone!

And can the SAPA keep the company from changing their working agreement without notice? Since it is not a true "contract", I don't think that they can.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Skywest:
SAPA: Uh, hi, Brad, it's SAPA, say, when can we get back together to talk about that 70 seat rate?

Brad: Never!

SAPA: Uh, ok, thanks, sir. Thanks for taking our call, sir. We hope you have a nice day, and if there's anything we can do please let us know, sir.

ASA:
Newie (ALPA) Brian, this is crap, you know it's crap, our pilots are not going to take a pay cut. Here's the polling data showing it.

Brian Aww, come on guys, the 705 is a really sweet airplane. Have you seen how huge it is?

Newie The answer is no. Now get out of my office until you have something to talk about.



Yeah... start an in house student council like SAPA. That's what we REALLY need.

Where's your 70 seat rate? You dummies are about to fly 90 seat jets for 50 seat rates!

 

[SkyNation]

are we 'dummies' if we stay in business and you don't? are we 'dummies' if we make more than you at the end of the year, regardless of hourly rate? are we 'dummies' if we are by and large a happy employee group all the while hearing constant pissing and moaning from all of our regional counterparts? are we 'dummies' if we retain our flying and are constantly in the running for new growth opportunities?

talking about what 'could' happen is one thing. realizing what has happened is quite another. skywest has succeeded where others have failed, and will continue to fail. at the end of the day I make as much or more than any other comparatively employed RJ FO. http://asacrew.com/store/results.php
I am happy where I work and the future that skywest continues to work to have.

why would I want to saddle myself/our airline with all the crap and problems I see at other regionals-our competition? because of doom and gloom stories of what could happen here?

I'm not anti-ALPA, but reading this board and observing the industry sure paints a bleak picture. I would be all for a more effective in-house union. we'll keep working towards it. and by the way, why do you care? are you happy where you work? I am. If you're not, look for someplace better. we get tons of ALPA refugees here.

 

[John Pennekamp]

are we 'dummies' if we stay in business and you don't? are we 'dummies' if we make more than you at the end of the year, regardless of hourly rate? are we 'dummies' if we are by and large a happy employee group all the while hearing constant pissing and moaning from all of our regional counterparts? are we 'dummies' if we retain our flying and are constantly in the running for new growth opportunities?

talking about what 'could' happen is one thing. realizing what has happened is quite another. skywest has succeeded where others have failed, and will continue to fail. at the end of the day I make as much or more than any other comparatively employed RJ FO. http://asacrew.com/store/results.php
I am happy where I work and the future that skywest continues to work to have.

why would I want to saddle myself/our airline with all the crap and problems I see at other regionals-our competition? because of doom and gloom stories of what could happen here?

I'm not anti-ALPA, but reading this board and observing the industry sure paints a bleak picture. I would be all for a more effective in-house union. we'll keep working towards it. and by the way, why do you care? are you happy where you work? I am. If you're not, look for someplace better. we get tons of ALPA refugees here.

Yes, you ARE dummies. Brainwashed dummies. Willing to undercut your airline peers just to "save your company".

If ASA goes out, so be it. I'll sleep well at night knowing I held to my sense of self worth instead of whoring myself out for a job. Skywest, on the other hand will be racing to the bottom with Mesa. Good luck with that one, SPORT!

 

[Peter Griffin]

I wasnt talking about SAPA. Why not ditch ALPA and have create a true union from scratch, not a "representative body" like SAPA (i.e. Southest, UPS unions). Your right, SAPA has no legal authority what-so-ever. It has been the goodwill of SKYW management thus far which has kept things fairly swell at SKYW. But it can, and will inevitably, change. ALPA has way too many conflicts of interest with regionals vs. majors, plus they are poorly run. Im just saying, why not create our own union?

Not that I have the slightest clue how to do that...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Skywest:
SAPA: Uh, hi, Brad, it's SAPA, say, when can we get back together to talk about that 70 seat rate?

Brad: Never!

SAPA: Uh, ok, thanks, sir. Thanks for taking our call, sir. We hope you have a nice day, and if there's anything we can do please let us know, sir.

ASA:
Newie (ALPA) Brian, this is crap, you know it's crap, our pilots are not going to take a pay cut. Here's the polling data showing it.

Brian Aww, come on guys, the 705 is a really sweet airplane. Have you seen how huge it is?

Newie The answer is no. Now get out of my office until you have something to talk about.



Yeah... start an in house student council like SAPA. That's what we REALLY need.

ASA / SkyWest:

Brian: They didn't go for it. I'm worried that the $840,000 in stock grants I recieved will be worth as much as my Delta stock grants.

Jerry: Brian, don't worry. We are training 100 a month out here and our instructors make $70,000 less than yours. He he he, when's the last time those overpaid weenies at ASA trained 100 a month?

Brian: Yeah, we'll keep transferring the airplanes to you and when we are done, you'll have broke ALPA and will have ALPA to blame. Its perfect.

Jerry: I know. You have to wonder why they don't represent their pilots and try to stop the transfer. After all, they could single carrier petition us, or even use the union to make a unified negotiating front across the line with the Delta pilots. They really are idiots.

Brian: Funny isn't it. Well, I feel better. My SkyWest stock will be worth even more when ALPA's gone.

Jerry: But ASA will be gone too.

Brian: Who cares?

Jerry: Yeah, funny isn't it. Oh well, you going to play golf with us on Tuesday....

 

[atrdriver]

I wasnt talking about SAPA. Why not ditch ALPA and have create a true union from scratch, not a "representative body" like SAPA (i.e. Southest, UPS unions). Your right, SAPA has no legal authority what-so-ever. It has been the goodwill of SKYW management thus far which has kept things fairly swell at SKYW. But it can, and will inevitably, change. ALPA has way too many conflicts of interest with regionals vs. majors, plus they are poorly run. Im just saying, why not create our own union?

Not that I have the slightest clue how to do that...

While it's a good idea, the problem is money. Regionals receive more money from ALPA national than they put in on average. When you come to something like a strike, then the disparity is even bigger. Yes, ALPA certainly has it's problems, but things like aeromedical, legal, and safety make up for it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I wasnt talking about SAPA. Why not ditch ALPA and have create a true union from scratch, not a "representative body" like SAPA (i.e. Southest, UPS unions). Your right, SAPA has no legal authority what-so-ever. It has been the goodwill of SKYW management thus far which has kept things fairly swell at SKYW. But it can, and will inevitably, change. ALPA has way too many conflicts of interest with regionals vs. majors, plus they are poorly run. Im just saying, why not create our own union?

Not that I have the slightest clue how to do that...

Because the dues revenue generated from the combined pilot incomes of all of ASA and SkyWest would not put enough in the coffers to through a christmas party, let alone fund all of the suppot functions provided by ALPA. All the regionals are subsidized by the dues revenue from the mainline carriers. This is possible because a lot of the functions are shared by the entire association.

I understand the issues with ALPA. I have my own.

It has many fundamental issues that need to be addressed. The senior leadership at the national level has been as myopic as many airline managements. They have continualyy failed to adapt to even the most obvious paradigm shifts the industry has in decades. ALPA needs an overhaul. Of that there is no doubt.

That being said, if you are going to have a union on a property, save something the size of AA or SWA (and the dues revenue that go along with a large well compensated workforce) ALPA is far and away the only choice. They have the infrastructure in place to support pilots in ways that no in house association ever could (aeromedical, E& FA, representation, political, etc). Even if it was financially feasible, why spend the time, money, and effort to reinvent the wheel. These are things that ALPA HAS done well for decades. That fact can not be disputed.

At the local level, ALPA is only as good as the people who volunteeer to make the whole tick. If you elect crappy reps and have bad committe chairs and volunteers, you will will have a crappy and inffective union on your property.

I'm pretty tired of hearing how SkyWest is in the hottub with management and things are all rosy and they don't need ALPA. You only have what you have because union carriers have forced contracts up to the level they were before 9/11, not because of some benevolent lover of pilots in St. George.

SkyWest is the biggest bunch of union coattail riders the regional industry has ever seen. It has been effective and served you well, however. I will give you that. Don't be naive enough to think for one second that if ASA crumbles before mgt like the Comair pilots did, that you aren't next. Jerry will squish your nuts and you won't have word one to say.

Better I say, to join up stand tall together and negotiate a fair contract for all of us. Thats what unity is all about.

I guess we'll see how it all pans out, huh?

 

[~~~^~~~]

While it's a good idea, the problem is money. Regionals receive more money from ALPA national than they put in on average.

Bull - for one, all the legal settlements which have resulted out of DMEC malfeasance come out of general funds, not the MEC's budget. There was something in ALPA's books that ALPA felt was worth nearly a million dollars to keep quiet. Heck just the Pan Am pilots' litigation resulted in ALPA having to mortgage the office in Herndon, VA. I bet you have not considered a penny of that money. Of course, ALPA will not show you the numbers, so you don't know. All I can say I know for sure is that ALPA has not had to mortgage National Headquaters to bail the union out of anything a small jet MEC has ever come up with.

As far as legal representation, are you talking "regionals can't have that" Saturday? Come on. We should take up a special assessment and get an attorney who isn't a Northwest Airlines Pilot.

The "regionals get more than they pay" arguement usually comes out when a regional MEC needs money, or they happen to make note of a bar tab in the tens of thousands of dollars from a Delta hospitality function and is dumb enough to ask about it.

Anyone else notice that the only table with wine and champaign bottles at the ASA Family Awareness Dinner was at the table where pilots from LEC 44 were seated? Someone please tell me why Delta pilots were at the ASA Family Awareness dinner?

At any rate, I am coming around to the opinion that an in house Skywest / ASA union would be better than ALPA. The other legitimate choice is Teamsters. In fact, I could see Teamsters getting Skywest, then ASA.

ALPA has been a representational disaster for ASA pilots. There were so many chances for ALPA to fix this alter ego mess. The fact ALPA refuses to admit culpability leaves me with little confidence in their ability to restore the house, or our profession.

I support our CNC and MEC, but I'd buy beer & catering for an ALPA card burning party any time.