ASA ALPA dues

[Pogue Mahone]

Here's a grand idea...ASA ditches ALPA and joins SKYW to form a new, in-house union! Hooray! Puppies for everyone!

Yeah, and in-house union. That's a terrific idea. We could have pizza party at the end of the year.

I like the way SAPA really represents the pilots for management. Thay are true pilot advocates. There legal and aeromedical departments are first rate.

 

[atrdriver]

Here's a grand idea...ASA ditches ALPA and joins SKYW to form a new, in-house union! Hooray! Puppies for everyone!

And can the SAPA keep the company from changing their working agreement without notice? Since it is not a true "contract", I don't think that they can.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Skywest:
SAPA: Uh, hi, Brad, it's SAPA, say, when can we get back together to talk about that 70 seat rate?

Brad: Never!

SAPA: Uh, ok, thanks, sir. Thanks for taking our call, sir. We hope you have a nice day, and if there's anything we can do please let us know, sir.

ASA:
Newie (ALPA) Brian, this is crap, you know it's crap, our pilots are not going to take a pay cut. Here's the polling data showing it.

Brian Aww, come on guys, the 705 is a really sweet airplane. Have you seen how huge it is?

Newie The answer is no. Now get out of my office until you have something to talk about.



Yeah... start an in house student council like SAPA. That's what we REALLY need.

Where's your 70 seat rate? You dummies are about to fly 90 seat jets for 50 seat rates!

 

[SkyNation]

are we 'dummies' if we stay in business and you don't? are we 'dummies' if we make more than you at the end of the year, regardless of hourly rate? are we 'dummies' if we are by and large a happy employee group all the while hearing constant pissing and moaning from all of our regional counterparts? are we 'dummies' if we retain our flying and are constantly in the running for new growth opportunities?

talking about what 'could' happen is one thing. realizing what has happened is quite another. skywest has succeeded where others have failed, and will continue to fail. at the end of the day I make as much or more than any other comparatively employed RJ FO. http://asacrew.com/store/results.php
I am happy where I work and the future that skywest continues to work to have.

why would I want to saddle myself/our airline with all the crap and problems I see at other regionals-our competition? because of doom and gloom stories of what could happen here?

I'm not anti-ALPA, but reading this board and observing the industry sure paints a bleak picture. I would be all for a more effective in-house union. we'll keep working towards it. and by the way, why do you care? are you happy where you work? I am. If you're not, look for someplace better. we get tons of ALPA refugees here.

 

[John Pennekamp]

are we 'dummies' if we stay in business and you don't? are we 'dummies' if we make more than you at the end of the year, regardless of hourly rate? are we 'dummies' if we are by and large a happy employee group all the while hearing constant pissing and moaning from all of our regional counterparts? are we 'dummies' if we retain our flying and are constantly in the running for new growth opportunities?

talking about what 'could' happen is one thing. realizing what has happened is quite another. skywest has succeeded where others have failed, and will continue to fail. at the end of the day I make as much or more than any other comparatively employed RJ FO. http://asacrew.com/store/results.php
I am happy where I work and the future that skywest continues to work to have.

why would I want to saddle myself/our airline with all the crap and problems I see at other regionals-our competition? because of doom and gloom stories of what could happen here?

I'm not anti-ALPA, but reading this board and observing the industry sure paints a bleak picture. I would be all for a more effective in-house union. we'll keep working towards it. and by the way, why do you care? are you happy where you work? I am. If you're not, look for someplace better. we get tons of ALPA refugees here.

Yes, you ARE dummies. Brainwashed dummies. Willing to undercut your airline peers just to "save your company".

If ASA goes out, so be it. I'll sleep well at night knowing I held to my sense of self worth instead of whoring myself out for a job. Skywest, on the other hand will be racing to the bottom with Mesa. Good luck with that one, SPORT!

 

[Peter Griffin]

I wasnt talking about SAPA. Why not ditch ALPA and have create a true union from scratch, not a "representative body" like SAPA (i.e. Southest, UPS unions). Your right, SAPA has no legal authority what-so-ever. It has been the goodwill of SKYW management thus far which has kept things fairly swell at SKYW. But it can, and will inevitably, change. ALPA has way too many conflicts of interest with regionals vs. majors, plus they are poorly run. Im just saying, why not create our own union?

Not that I have the slightest clue how to do that...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Skywest:
SAPA: Uh, hi, Brad, it's SAPA, say, when can we get back together to talk about that 70 seat rate?

Brad: Never!

SAPA: Uh, ok, thanks, sir. Thanks for taking our call, sir. We hope you have a nice day, and if there's anything we can do please let us know, sir.

ASA:
Newie (ALPA) Brian, this is crap, you know it's crap, our pilots are not going to take a pay cut. Here's the polling data showing it.

Brian Aww, come on guys, the 705 is a really sweet airplane. Have you seen how huge it is?

Newie The answer is no. Now get out of my office until you have something to talk about.



Yeah... start an in house student council like SAPA. That's what we REALLY need.

ASA / SkyWest:

Brian: They didn't go for it. I'm worried that the $840,000 in stock grants I recieved will be worth as much as my Delta stock grants.

Jerry: Brian, don't worry. We are training 100 a month out here and our instructors make $70,000 less than yours. He he he, when's the last time those overpaid weenies at ASA trained 100 a month?

Brian: Yeah, we'll keep transferring the airplanes to you and when we are done, you'll have broke ALPA and will have ALPA to blame. Its perfect.

Jerry: I know. You have to wonder why they don't represent their pilots and try to stop the transfer. After all, they could single carrier petition us, or even use the union to make a unified negotiating front across the line with the Delta pilots. They really are idiots.

Brian: Funny isn't it. Well, I feel better. My SkyWest stock will be worth even more when ALPA's gone.

Jerry: But ASA will be gone too.

Brian: Who cares?

Jerry: Yeah, funny isn't it. Oh well, you going to play golf with us on Tuesday....

 

[atrdriver]

I wasnt talking about SAPA. Why not ditch ALPA and have create a true union from scratch, not a "representative body" like SAPA (i.e. Southest, UPS unions). Your right, SAPA has no legal authority what-so-ever. It has been the goodwill of SKYW management thus far which has kept things fairly swell at SKYW. But it can, and will inevitably, change. ALPA has way too many conflicts of interest with regionals vs. majors, plus they are poorly run. Im just saying, why not create our own union?

Not that I have the slightest clue how to do that...

While it's a good idea, the problem is money. Regionals receive more money from ALPA national than they put in on average. When you come to something like a strike, then the disparity is even bigger. Yes, ALPA certainly has it's problems, but things like aeromedical, legal, and safety make up for it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I wasnt talking about SAPA. Why not ditch ALPA and have create a true union from scratch, not a "representative body" like SAPA (i.e. Southest, UPS unions). Your right, SAPA has no legal authority what-so-ever. It has been the goodwill of SKYW management thus far which has kept things fairly swell at SKYW. But it can, and will inevitably, change. ALPA has way too many conflicts of interest with regionals vs. majors, plus they are poorly run. Im just saying, why not create our own union?

Not that I have the slightest clue how to do that...

Because the dues revenue generated from the combined pilot incomes of all of ASA and SkyWest would not put enough in the coffers to through a christmas party, let alone fund all of the suppot functions provided by ALPA. All the regionals are subsidized by the dues revenue from the mainline carriers. This is possible because a lot of the functions are shared by the entire association.

I understand the issues with ALPA. I have my own.

It has many fundamental issues that need to be addressed. The senior leadership at the national level has been as myopic as many airline managements. They have continualyy failed to adapt to even the most obvious paradigm shifts the industry has in decades. ALPA needs an overhaul. Of that there is no doubt.

That being said, if you are going to have a union on a property, save something the size of AA or SWA (and the dues revenue that go along with a large well compensated workforce) ALPA is far and away the only choice. They have the infrastructure in place to support pilots in ways that no in house association ever could (aeromedical, E& FA, representation, political, etc). Even if it was financially feasible, why spend the time, money, and effort to reinvent the wheel. These are things that ALPA HAS done well for decades. That fact can not be disputed.

At the local level, ALPA is only as good as the people who volunteeer to make the whole tick. If you elect crappy reps and have bad committe chairs and volunteers, you will will have a crappy and inffective union on your property.

I'm pretty tired of hearing how SkyWest is in the hottub with management and things are all rosy and they don't need ALPA. You only have what you have because union carriers have forced contracts up to the level they were before 9/11, not because of some benevolent lover of pilots in St. George.

SkyWest is the biggest bunch of union coattail riders the regional industry has ever seen. It has been effective and served you well, however. I will give you that. Don't be naive enough to think for one second that if ASA crumbles before mgt like the Comair pilots did, that you aren't next. Jerry will squish your nuts and you won't have word one to say.

Better I say, to join up stand tall together and negotiate a fair contract for all of us. Thats what unity is all about.

I guess we'll see how it all pans out, huh?

 

[~~~^~~~]

While it's a good idea, the problem is money. Regionals receive more money from ALPA national than they put in on average.

Bull - for one, all the legal settlements which have resulted out of DMEC malfeasance come out of general funds, not the MEC's budget. There was something in ALPA's books that ALPA felt was worth nearly a million dollars to keep quiet. Heck just the Pan Am pilots' litigation resulted in ALPA having to mortgage the office in Herndon, VA. I bet you have not considered a penny of that money. Of course, ALPA will not show you the numbers, so you don't know. All I can say I know for sure is that ALPA has not had to mortgage National Headquaters to bail the union out of anything a small jet MEC has ever come up with.

As far as legal representation, are you talking "regionals can't have that" Saturday? Come on. We should take up a special assessment and get an attorney who isn't a Northwest Airlines Pilot.

The "regionals get more than they pay" arguement usually comes out when a regional MEC needs money, or they happen to make note of a bar tab in the tens of thousands of dollars from a Delta hospitality function and is dumb enough to ask about it.

Anyone else notice that the only table with wine and champaign bottles at the ASA Family Awareness Dinner was at the table where pilots from LEC 44 were seated? Someone please tell me why Delta pilots were at the ASA Family Awareness dinner?

At any rate, I am coming around to the opinion that an in house Skywest / ASA union would be better than ALPA. The other legitimate choice is Teamsters. In fact, I could see Teamsters getting Skywest, then ASA.

ALPA has been a representational disaster for ASA pilots. There were so many chances for ALPA to fix this alter ego mess. The fact ALPA refuses to admit culpability leaves me with little confidence in their ability to restore the house, or our profession.

I support our CNC and MEC, but I'd buy beer & catering for an ALPA card burning party any time.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Even if it was financially feasible, why spend the time, money, and effort to reinvent the wheel.

I guess we'll see how it all pans out, huh?

Why? Because while Teamsters has been fighting to get all the pilots in the service of different alter ego airlines on to one list (with the important exception og 6oJets) ALPA has been busy undermining their members at small jet carriers.

The Delta MEC had as an agenda item an evaluation of the benefits of cost cuts at DCI. The view at the major level and at national is that feel falling rates at regionals are a benefit to mainline pilots who can use the profits generated to help restore their profession.

While ALPA claims to be supporting the ASA pilots, we know ALPA locked our MEC out of scope negotiations with Delta and today ALPA is negotiating against ASA pilots to the point of figuring out how much money is to be had on the backs of small jet pilots. Also note that ALPA never bothered to calculate the harmful effects of Contract 2000 scope, but they were quick to calculate how much the company could earn by cutting DCI rates. Who's zoomin who? ALPA and management are in a flippin conspiracy to screw us - does no one else see this?

ALPA has done nothing to address the conflict of interest and the conflicts within the union's own negotiating position. Unfortunately the only politically accepted position now is "full pay to the last day" while ALPA washes it hands of small jet pilots, blaming the industry, management and September 11th. For me "full pay to the last day" is only saying you were in control of the airplane until the point of impact.

I don't think "riding it in" is effective union representation.

 

[ASADriver]

So I will ask again. What is to stop JA from walking into his office one day and saying "all pilots will take a 20% paycut, and we are eliminating all rigs"? Right now, there is nothing stopping that from happening, except the threat of an ALPA drive on the property. Take away unions, and there is nothing stopping every airline management from doing the same thing. ALPA isn't perfect, just like any other organization. Yes I believe that they need to be help accountable, to the majors and the regionals. But right now they are the best that we have, and overall they do a lot more good than bad.

u

The unions aren't exactly stopping it either now are they? At least if your non-union you can make 2% more than the union guys who are taking the same cuts. ALPA is a waste of money.

 

[Peter Griffin]

While it's a good idea, the problem is money. Regionals receive more money from ALPA national than they put in on average. When you come to something like a strike, then the disparity is even bigger. Yes, ALPA certainly has it's problems, but things like aeromedical, legal, and safety make up for it.

True, ALPA is loaded. But, believe it or not, ALPA started from ground zero at one point as well. There was a time right after ALPA was formed and they sure couldnt afford to strike. But over time they built up a nice warchest, which we see today.

Yes, the majors do have greater incomes, as their pilots are paid more. But then again, if a regional was to strike, the union wouldnt have to pay out as much in strike bennies because, well, were not making much to begin with.

Who is to say an in house union couldnt provide other benefits (aeromedical, legal, etc)? It wouldnt be on as grand a scale as ALPA, but its possible. These benefits will only apply to a very small portion of our pilot group as well, so would it be worth it in the first place. Would a pilot be willing to sacrafice these for the overall benefit of legal bargaining and a grievance process? Its a nice ethics question, and one that each person has to answer for themselves.

Starting an ASA/SKYW union would be difficult for sure. Impossible? I dunno. My previous experience with ALPA, well, sucked. But with the mgt - labor relations cooling lately at SKYW, something needs to be done...

 

[~~~^~~~]

-
-
Since ALPA is not interested in fixing their problem - Teamsters as an alternative?
-
I dunno. Teamsters lost me with the 6oJets deal.
-

 

[atrdriver]

u

The unions aren't exactly stopping it either now are they? At least if your non-union you can make 2% more than the union guys who are taking the same cuts. ALPA is a waste of money.

I sincerely hope that you never have a problem with the FEDs, or for some reason lose your medical (aminly because I wouldn't wish that on anyone). But if by some chance you do, I somehow doubt that you will feel that ALPA is a waste of money. The money that you would spend defending yourself against a violation alone would be many times what you spend on ALPA dues.

 

[atrdriver]

Bull - for one, all the legal settlements which have resulted out of DMEC malfeasance come out of general funds, not the MEC's budget. There was something in ALPA's books that ALPA felt was worth nearly a million dollars to keep quiet. Heck just the Pan Am pilots' litigation resulted in ALPA having to mortgage the office in Herndon, VA. I bet you have not considered a penny of that money. Of course, ALPA will not show you the numbers, so you don't know. All I can say I know for sure is that ALPA has not had to mortgage National Headquaters to bail the union out of anything a small jet MEC has ever come up with.

As far as legal representation, are you talking "regionals can't have that" Saturday? Come on. We should take up a special assessment and get an attorney who isn't a Northwest Airlines Pilot.

The "regionals get more than they pay" arguement usually comes out when a regional MEC needs money, or they happen to make note of a bar tab in the tens of thousands of dollars from a Delta hospitality function and is dumb enough to ask about it.

Anyone else notice that the only table with wine and champaign bottles at the ASA Family Awareness Dinner was at the table where pilots from LEC 44 were seated? Someone please tell me why Delta pilots were at the ASA Family Awareness dinner?

At any rate, I am coming around to the opinion that an in house Skywest / ASA union would be better than ALPA. The other legitimate choice is Teamsters. In fact, I could see Teamsters getting Skywest, then ASA.

ALPA has been a representational disaster for ASA pilots. There were so many chances for ALPA to fix this alter ego mess. The fact ALPA refuses to admit culpability leaves me with little confidence in their ability to restore the house, or our profession.

I support our CNC and MEC, but I'd buy beer & catering for an ALPA card burning party any time.

The way that I understand it we get more money just during negotiations than we put. Then look at a strike situation. I'm not talking about lawsuits, I don't really care about them, and I think you know that. No, ALPA isn't perfect, but the amount of money that would have to be raised in a hurry to start an in-house union would require special assessments and much more than 1.9% of our pay. And I don't know if you have ever dealt with the Teamsters, but I have, and I really don't ever want to have anything else to do with them.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well ATR, lawsuits do matter when ALPA has to pay settlements out of our dues money. Those lawsuits have been triggered by and lost as a result of mainline bargaining that runs contrary to the union's Constitution, the laws of our nation and the standard of representation ALPA owes its members. You can't say we don't pay our fair share, when in fact we have paid to bail the Delta MEC out of trouble several times (to the extent of nearly bankrupting our union once).

Of course, ALPA will not show anyone the numbers, so aside from hearing stories over dinner, none of us can prove where the money goes. But ASA should gross ALPA around 2.34 million yearly. It is plenty more than our budget, but you are right that a strike would put it in negative numbers quickly.

ALPA tries to say we don't pay enough to excuse ALPA's complete failure to represent us. However, ALPA's representational duty is not triggered by the amount of dues a member pays. ALPA owes us the same representation they give the Delta pilots.

ALPA thinks if they fund our barganing, the have fulfilled their duty as a Fiduciary. However the duty ALPA owes goes much further: (from Wikpedia)

A fiduciary duty is the highest standard of care imposed at either equity or law. A fiduciary is expected to be extremely loyal to the person they owe the duty (the "principal"): they must not put their personal interests before the duty, and must not profit from their position as a fiduciary, unless the principal consents. The fiduciary relationship is highlighted by good faith, loyalty and trust, and the word itself originally comes from the Latin fides, meaning faith, and fiducia.
When a fiduciary duty is imposed, equity requires a stricter standard of behaviour than the comparable tortious duty of care at common law. It is said the fiduciary has a duty not to be in a situation where personal interests and fiduciary duty conflict, a duty not to be in a situation where their fiduciary duty conflicts with another fiduciary duty, and a duty not to profit from their fiduciary position without express knowledge and consent. A fiduciary cannot have a conflict of interest. It has been said that fiduciaries must conduct themselves "at a level higher than that trodden by the crowd."[1]

Elements of the fiduciary duty

The person the duty is imposed on is called the fiduciary. A fiduciary will be liable to account if it is proved that the profit, benefit, or gain was acquired by one of three means:[2]

• In circumstances of conflict of duty and interest
• In circumstances of conflict of duty and duty
• By taking advantage of the fiduciary position.

Therefore, it is said the fiduciary has a duty not to be in a situation where personal interests and fiduciary duty conflict, a duty not to be in a situation where their fiduciary duty conflicts with another fiduciary duty, and not to profit from their fiduciary position without express knowledge and consent. A fiduciary cannot have a conflict of interest.
[edit]
http://forums.flightinfo.com/
Conflict of interest and duty

A fiduciary must not put themselves in a position where their interest and duty conflict.[3] In other words, they must always serve the principal's interests, subjugating their own preference for those of the principal. The fiduciary's state of mind is irrelevant; that is, it does not matter whether the fiduciary had any ill-intent or dishonesty in mind.
[edit]
http://forums.flightinfo.com/
Conflict of duty and duty

A fiduciary's duty must not conflict with another fiduciary duty.[4] Conflicts between one fiduciary duty and another fiduciary duty arise most often when a lawyer or an agent, such as a real estate agent, represent more than one client, and the interests of those clients conflict. This usually occurs when a lawyer attempts to represent both the plaintiff and the defendant in the same matter, for example. The rule comes from the logical conclusion that a fiduciary cannot make the principal's interests a top priority if he has two principals and their interests are in diametrically opposed; he must balance the interests, which is not acceptable to equity. Therefore, the conflict of duty and duty rule is really an extension of the conflict of interest and duty rule.

 

[737 Pylt]

The Delta MEC had as an agenda item an evaluation of the benefits of cost cuts at DCI. The view at the major level and at national is that feel falling rates at regionals are a benefit to mainline pilots who can use the profits generated to help restore their profession.

While ALPA claims to be supporting the ASA pilots, we know ALPA locked our MEC out of scope negotiations with Delta and today ALPA is negotiating against ASA pilots to the point of figuring out how much money is to be had on the backs of small jet pilots. Also note that ALPA never bothered to calculate the harmful effects of Contract 2000 scope, but they were quick to calculate how much the company could earn by cutting DCI rates. Who's zoomin who? ALPA and management are in a flippin conspiracy to screw us - does no one else see this?

Are you really that stupid? Statements like the above just goes to show you that you are nothing more than a mainline pilot hater, and shows that your group (rjdc) is filled with the undesirables of aviation. Try and sue your way out of that one sport! I truly believe that you should not be operating any machinery with an iq as low as yours!
737

 

[atrdriver]

While ALPA claims to be supporting the ASA pilots, we know ALPA locked our MEC out of scope negotiations with Delta and today ALPA is negotiating against ASA pilots to the point of figuring out how much money is to be had on the backs of small jet pilots.

Well, you know that you aren't ever going to convince me that we should have been at the table while the DAL MEC was negotiating their scope clause, no more than ExpressJet should be at the table while we are negotiating ours. Or no more than the DAL pilots should be there while we negotiate ours. It was their negotiations with their management, and we had no reason or right to be there.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ATR - well if I can't convince you, would looking around you when you are parked next to Mesa, Freedom, CHQ, SkyWest, Comair and Shuttle America be persuasive? Would the "concessionary" forces acting on our current working agreement while our company is profitable be persuasive?

If I am not mistaken this year DCI flying will go over 50% of Delta block hours. There is no scope on that flying. When Delta performs less than 50% of Delta flying do you still hold the position that no pilot has the right to try to bind their company to an agreement?

I know "subsidiaries can't have scope" is a core part of yours and ALPA's belief system, but can't you at least look around and see that this belief has been very destructive to our union and the profession?

ALPA is now saying we "should not expect" to be able to bind SkyWest because small jet subsidiaries do not bind holding companies. If that is the case, why even bother negotiating a contract? Really.

737Pylt - I sure do not "hate" mainline pilots. You have negotiated what you feel is in your best interest, which what any MEC does.

I am deeply disappointed that our union chooses to represent its preferred members to the extent that harming other members is considered normal business.

Re-read the definition of Fiduciary and tell me ALPA is performing its Fiduciary duty.

You don't seem to ever provide any objective factual information or news. I encourage you to do better. At least General does a little homework - you are a bore.