ASA ALPA Dinner Saturday Night

[Freebrd]

I'm a commuter and wasn't able to attend. Anyone care to comment how it went? Thanks.

 

[ohplease!]

I'm a commuter and wasn't able to attend. Anyone care to comment how it went? Thanks.

good food, nice pep rally. Fun to watch Woreth and whats her name from the trade publication take shots at each other. Other than that, nada. Not that I expected anything earth shattering.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Turnout was outstanding. I didn't see an empty seat anywhere.

 

[HughBeamont]

Did they have a meat raffle?

 

[HoserASA]

Fun to watch Woreth and whats her name from the trade publication take shots at each other.quote]

Cool! Care to expand on what the two of them were saying?

Hoser

 

[~~~^~~~]

John Rice gave a good presentation on the work he and the Negotiating Committee have been working on.

Holly Hegeman bragged on herself and how she got it right in the past. She criticized Delta management (playing to the Counsel 44 table who had the only botles of wine being purchaed on ALPA expense accounts) and said she liked Jerry Atkin, that she thought he was crazy for buying ASA, but that he is a really good guy and she likes him very, very, much, but she never really said why, other than he is a really good guy. My guess is that she must have just got a consulting contract from SkyWest and besides, I do agree with her on both points.

Duane Woerth talked a lot about ALPA's history when it was a successful union, then mentioned how proud he was of the I Air guys for doing the right thing right up and until they lost their jobs. He then, oddly enough, read what seemed like a eulogy for Mesaba, and explained how he would not sign another concessionary contract. ( I clapped for that ) He said there is 20% too much capacity in the industry and strikes might help take care of that problem. (IE kill off some of the non preferred pilots - I stopped clapping) There was not much about ASA and Duane kept calling Jerry Atkin, Jerry Atkins, like he advocates low carb eating, or something. Overall, I got the impression that Duane was here to spend an evening with the Counsel 44 guys and that the ASA speech was a 30 minute justification to expense the trip.

But then I got home and learned that NWA pilots proposed NSTAR, a new alter ego to fly 51+ seat jets and began to understand Duane's comments about Mesaba. (Don't sign contract, kill 'em off,award the preferred flying to NorthWest pilots and sub the rest out to the lowest bidder - a la CC Air)

I wanted to ask the Counsel 44 guys how their negotiations to take away our pass benefits was going and enquire why they were even there to begin with, but it wasn't the time, or place.

Bottom line is that ALPA National did not address alter ego, or the race for the bottom. In fact, the thinking amongst mainline guys is that small jets are somehow causing the problems at mainline carriers and their costs must be reduced. If the "race for the bottom" results in profits at mainline carriers and gives ALPA a little bargaining leverage, then Duane is all for it.

Anyway, that was my take on what was said - as well as what was not said.

 

[Rogue5]

... said she liked Jerry Atkin, that she thought he was crazy for buying ASA...

Jerry's been known to make a success out of crazy ideas before:

SkyWest folklore has it that when he was first brought in as a young accountant fresh out of college to help his uncle out with what was, at the time, basically a piston-twin shuttle service for businessmen between SGU and SLC, after his initial analysis he told them to sell SkyWest. They couldn't find a buyer so the story goes he advised them to cut their losses and give it away. Again, no takers. It was thus decided the only thing to do was turn the operation around and make it sucessful.

SkyWest is what it is today, three decades later.

Who knows? Maybe history will repeat itself in Atlanta.

 

[ohplease!]

Anyway, that was my take on what was said - as well as what was not said.

pretty much right on. ALPA needs to go but, thats for a nother day. We're too deep into this negotiations to cross that bridge yet. ALPA will NEVER consider us as equals (in any way).

 

[boknowsASA]

Thanks guys for the info....

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

In fact, the thinking amongst mainline guys is that small jets are somehow causing the problems at mainline carriers and their costs must be reduced. If the "race for the bottom" results in profits at mainline carriers and gives ALPA a little bargaining leverage, then Duane is all for it.

Anyway, that was my take on what was said - as well as what was not said.

Small jets are a problem. If that hasn't been proven over the last 4 years, I don't know what 2x4 you have to be hit with. Unless you have some fee for departure arrangement, you simply don't make money with rjs. Independence air should have shown that clear as day. Fee for departure and any other kind of guaranteed profit schemes are just that--schemes. You guarantee United or Delta any kind of fee per departure and all of a sudden they are making money again. You guys get so wrapped up in the "we are equal pilots" crap that you fail to see your jet is killing majors. They have slit their own throat by falling into the rj trap. Somebody, who shall remain nameless, went around the ALPA boards post 911 screaming how much better Delta is doing because of the RJs. While that may have been true while RJs could command a premium, those days are long gone. The RJDC realizes it as well. RJ drivers have a limited lifespan. It is an expensive jet, and doesn't bring in a premium fare. Why else would the RJDC be fighting so drastically for scope?!? The best management can do is exactly what they are attempting--larger equipment for lower wages. If/when they secure such wages, the days of 50 seat turboprops, and probably 70s as well, are gone. The signs are, and always have been, there.

glad to be gone

 

[SkyWstman]

rj's aren't the problem. The problem is the Wallmart mentality that we all have. No one of us likes to spend a dime more than we have to for anything. As long as the internet is available so we consumers can get the cheapest ticket available, the industry will be pressured to keep prices low. Rj's were a short term answer to keep feed available to the majors while they were shedding their equipment and routes in BK. And the reason they were in BK was because they couldn't figure out how to beat Southwest, the original low cost carrier, at their game. Rj's didn't cause the problem, they came as a result of the problem. And now they may very well be obsolete but the problem still remains.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

rj's aren't the problem. The problem is the Wallmart mentality that we all have. No one of us likes to spend a dime more than we have to for anything. As long as the internet is available so we consumers can get the cheapest ticket available, the industry will be pressured to keep prices low. Rj's were a short term answer to keep feed available to the majors while they were shedding their equipment and routes in BK. And the reason they were in BK was because they couldn't figure out how to beat Southwest, the original low cost carrier, at their game. Rj's didn't cause the problem, they came as a result of the problem. And now they may very well be obsolete but the problem still remains.

Let me just clarify that this is not a pilot thing. The pilot thing is a completely seperate issue. The issue is the RJ. It was a great idea when direct out of small cities could command the premium necessary in order to cover the enormous expense of a 50 seat jet--cost wise. This was pre-911. Post 911, the fare premium started dwindling, and is now gone. Management knows it. The problem is that they have themselves roped into this fee-for-departure mentality--very lucrative for skywest, very expensive for the major--especially with Comair still tied to their back. Something has got to give. Delta cannot afford the fee for Skywest, and Skywest cannot afford to let Delta go out of business. The problem IS the airplane, and the fee-for-departure arrangements that managements have gotten themselves roped into.

glad to be gone

 

[General Lee]

Let me just clarify that this is not a pilot thing. The pilot thing is a completely seperate issue. The issue is the RJ. It was a great idea when direct out of small cities could command the premium necessary in order to cover the enormous expense of a 50 seat jet--cost wise. This was pre-911. Post 911, the fare premium started dwindling, and is now gone. Management knows it. The problem is that they have themselves roped into this fee-for-departure mentality--very lucrative for skywest, very expensive for the major--especially with Comair still tied to their back. Something has got to give. Delta cannot afford the fee for Skywest, and Skywest cannot afford to let Delta go out of business. The problem IS the airplane, and the fee-for-departure arrangements that managements have gotten themselves roped into.

glad to be gone

And Ron Reber, the CFO at SkyWest, feels "insulated" from high fuel costs thanks to Delta paying SkyWest directly for higher fuel costs. If SkyWest actually had to pay for the real increase in gas (that everyone else IS paying), then they probably would not be profitable. Hmmmm. You would think with all of those profits they would settle with ASA and give their own SkyWest pilots difference pay with the CR7 vs the CRJ. Nah.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Rogue5]

Hey General,

How many more times do you think you can bring up Reber's "insulated" comment before you yourself get tired of reading it over and over again?

Furthermore, why would you disparage SkyWest management for signing onto such a sweet deal? I'd imagine if you worked at a normal 9-5 job and your boss offered you a deal whereby as long as you got out of bed and made it to work every day, Monday through Friday, he'd guarantee he'd pay for all your costs (food, rent, insurance, etc.) plus a small profit. You'd jump at it. We all would.

Blame mainline management for agreeing to such a deal, don't blame the regional managers who were able to negotiate guaranteed profits...

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Blame mainline management for agreeing to such a deal, don't blame the regional managers who were able to negotiate guaranteed profits...

Absolutely, blame mainline management. They got themselves hedged to heavily in RJs. They let themselves get into very lopsided agreements with regional feed. Just remember, however, that the gravy train will not last forever. UAL, DAL, and NWA cannot guarantee profits for feed while sustaining heavy losses because of the feed forever.

 

[General Lee]

Hey General,

How many more times do you think you can bring up Reber's "insulated" comment before you yourself get tired of reading it over and over again?

Furthermore, why would you disparage SkyWest management for signing onto such a sweet deal? I'd imagine if you worked at a normal 9-5 job and your boss offered you a deal whereby as long as you got out of bed and made it to work every day, Monday through Friday, he'd guarantee he'd pay for all your costs (food, rent, insurance, etc.) plus a small profit. You'd jump at it. We all would.

Blame mainline management for agreeing to such a deal, don't blame the regional managers who were able to negotiate guaranteed profits...

I think it is hillarious. My SkyWest friend in SLC sent me the monthly SkyWest newspaper with that exact quote, and he was bragging to his people that they were "insulated." Yeah, it was a good business deal, and you would think they would share some of the extra profits with YOU, right? I think it is funny that SkyWest toats their unbelievable profits, but doesn't mention that we are getting the short end of the stick and without that, your profits would evaporate.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ohplease!]

UAL, DAL, and NWA cannot guarantee profits for feed while sustaining heavy losses because of the feed forever.

did you just say this wrong or are you really that stupid?

 

[Andy Neill]

Yeah, it was a good business deal, and you would think they would share some of the extra profits with YOU, right?

Bye Bye--General Lee

A profit sharing check showed up in my distribution today. It seems they ARE doing just that.

 

[Rogue5]

Fine.

Here's the deal then: Sit down with your union and coerce your company to take back the RJ flying into mainline aircraft (because apparently, according to you guys they are so absolutely stupid that they insist upon the fee-for-departure arrangement, even though it is the sole event bringing down the financial house), and open up a right seat in a mainline aircraft for me to move into.

I'll even buy the first round.

On second thought, maybe I don't want to work for a company that is so obviously horrendously mismanaged by a bunch of well-dressed monkeys flinging poo.

(KIDDING, just kidding...)

(kinda)

 

["GO AROUND"]

Hey General,

Skywest also got DAL to pay ASA and SKW based on our performance without the ATC and weather delays. Are you going to start preaching that we are "insulated" from all delays that come from flying in and out of ATL?

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

did you just say this wrong or are you really that stupid?

I guess that I am really that stupid. Delta, UAL and NWA are overpaying for feed. They cannot sustain doing so. Skywest doesn't have a prayer without the lucrative fee for departure. Indy Air proved that. What part of that do you not understand? It is actually so clear, and has been forever, that even stupid people like me can see it. It has nothing to do with the pilots, so don't bother trying to put those words into my mouth. The lopsided, lucrative contracts skywest, asa enjoy have to end. RJ profitability cannot be artificially masked forever. It's that simple.

glad to be gone

 

[Berry McCockner]

Mr. Worthless mentioned something about ALPA PAC and only 1% of ASA's pilot group contributing. What is ALPA PAC??? Any of you ALPA guru's want to throw be a bone.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Political Action Committee. ALPA's lobby to congress fund.

 

[Berry McCockner]

So the alpa PAC is in addition to my unvolutary contribution. They want more money? yeah right.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

good food, nice pep rally. Fun to watch Woreth and whats her name from the trade publication take shots at each other. Other than that, nada. Not that I expected anything earth shattering.

Ditto here. Is it me, or did Duane seem drunk? I also like how he went to the head of the line for the buffet. I guess he wanted to get there before the steerage did. Kudos to the local guys, but once again shame on ALPA national - these guys are really out of touch. I get the feeling this will be resolved soon in a "win-win" scenario.

 

[ohplease!]

Ditto here. Is it me, or did Duane seem drunk? I also like how he went to the head of the line for the buffet. I guess he wanted to get there before the steerage did. Kudos to the local guys, but once again shame on ALPA national - these guys are really out of touch. I get the feeling this will be resolved soon in a "win-win" scenario.

didn't seem drunk but, he did seem awfully arrogant. He also spent an awful lot of time on his knees in front of the table with the Delta guy. He was kinda' the keynote speaker so, I guess he should have gone first.

Not sure why he was there. I know he thinks we should all be out of a job.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

Mr. Worthless mentioned something about ALPA PAC and only 1% of ASA's pilot group contributing. What is ALPA PAC??? Any of you ALPA guru's want to throw be a bone.

It is ALPA's Political Action Committee. They promote electing Dems. for President. No thanks ALPA. What good is more pay if the govt. taxes me more and takes away my guns. When ALPA supports Libertarians, I'll support the PAC. Until then, ALPA already gets too much of my hard earned money. Take it out of DW's salary.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

didn't seem drunk but, he did seem awfully arrogant. He also spent an awful lot of time on his knees in front of the table with the Delta guy. He was kinda' the keynote speaker so, I guess he should have gone first.

Not sure why he was there. I know he thinks we should all be out of a job.

Since we pay him about $400,000 per year, he should let the people who pay his salary go first. He cares more about the Delta guys then he does us. I think he should be out of a job.

 

[ohplease!]

Since we pay him about $400,000 per year, he should let the people who pay his salary go first. He cares more about the Delta guys then he does us. I think he should be out of a job.

no argument here.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

glad to be gone

Glad your gone too - hope you've found you're perfect job. The regionals and majors are mutually dependent on each other. We can't survive without you (ACA), and you can't survive without feed (PanAm). The sooner you understand we aren't the enemy, the sooner we can work on a solution to our mutual problems. Until then, continue to live in your little world where the regionals are to blame for your misfortunes.