ASA 700 rates....

[JoeMerchant]

Thought I'd start a new thread rather than continue it on the UND thread...

Someone brought up how ASA pay isn't keeping up with inflation.... That's a good point....

The union says pilots don't determine where airplanes end up, and pilot's don't buy airplanes....

The union also says that we are in a strong position now because of the pilot shortage...

If these two statements are true, then why don't we ask for Horizon payrates plus COLA on the 700? If not that much, then why not at least Horizon 700 rates? Why not our current rates adjusted for inflation?

Seems to be a disconnect between the rhetoric and what we are asking for..... If it doesn't matter what the rates are, and if we are in such a strong position, then why don't we ask for more on the 700?

 

[OpsCheckGood]

The point is>>>>>our requests are NOT unreasonable. Better yet, let's go with Joe. Let's scrap all we've done and try and fix ALPA National right now. We, might could get it done in about 5-7 years, then work on that brand scope........5-10. Then we will be in a position to negotiate for a real contract!

 

[JoeMerchant]

The point is>>>>>our requests are NOT unreasonable. Better yet, let's go with Joe. Let's scrap all we've done and try and fix ALPA National right now. We, might could get it done in about 5-7 years, then work on that brand scope........5-10. Then we will be in a position to negotiate for a real contract!

A strong national union is the foundation and our contract is the house.... You can't build a big house without a strong foundation.....

To use another analogy.... you are trying to put the cart before the horse....

You didn't answer the question about the 700 rates... Why aren't they keeping up with inflation? I thought pilots didn't buy airplanes..... go ahead and at least ask for 700 rates that keep up with inflation...

 

[OpsCheckGood]

We're just trying to get a piece of the pie.....not the whole pie.....(sorry, not as extinsive of an analogy library that joe has) I believe you were promising a contract in something like 4 hours a while back? did that have Horizon pay rates included?

 

[xpdriver]

Anything less than 130 at year 12>>YOU BE A WHORE!!!!!!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

What do you propose Joe?

I feel like there is an ulterior motive with this thread. If you're not claiming the union is asking for too much (already highly paid on 700), then you're saying they're leaving pilots behind (instructors).

You want them to ask for horizon rates, but we all know you'd turn that around and use it against them. Let's face it, our CNC and MEC can do no "write" in your eyes.

"Write"...how you guys like that ability to tie my response into another thread? Bonus points for me???? Flylowman????

PS Actually willing to listen to responses on this thread. I'll save my joking around for elsewhere on this one.

 

[OpsCheckGood]

Stiflers mom is Write!

 

[EV120]

Joe
Thanks for getting this discussion where it belongs. However, why are you complaining about the 700 rates...I thought you didn't fly it.

I know as well as every one else, our rates are not great. However, hijacking the other thread was not really necessary. ASA is simply trying to recruit and plant seeds for the years to come. They are aware of the attrition, and the fact that the pipeline is drying up. They are actually trying to be a little proactive...I agree that that they should make the contarct a priority. However, if there are not enough people to fill the flightdeck, there will not be a need...as we will all be looking for new, lower paying jobs.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What do you propose Joe?

I feel like there is an ulterior motive with this thread. If you're not claiming the union is asking for too much (already highly paid on 700), then you're saying they're leaving pilots behind (instructors).

You want them to ask for horizon rates, but we all know you'd turn that around and use it against them. Let's face it, our CNC and MEC can do no "write" in your eyes.

I don't want them to ask for Horizon rates..... I am using a Rush Limbaugh technique..... Illustrate absurdity by being absurd....

I hear a lot of chest pounding from the ALPA cheerleader section and it got me thinking...

They say that pilots don't buy airplanes and that pilot payrates don't decide where aircraft are placed...

They say that we have a lot of leverage now because of the pilot shortage....

They say that our pay needs to keep up with inflation and that it isn't....

IF all of those statements are true, then we should be asking more for the 700.... Even if we get everything we are asking for, we won't even be close to inflation or industry leading..... Why is that?

Just want to hear what the ALPA cheerleaders have to say....

For the record, if ALPA had controlled scope, we COULD ask for Horizon rates and management can afford them.... However since that hasn't been a priority of ALPA, I understand the need to compete.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe
Thanks for getting this discussion where it belongs. However, why are you complaining about the 700 rates...I thought you didn't fly it.

I know as well as every one else, our rates are not great. However, hijacking the other thread was not really necessary. ASA is simply trying to recruit and plant seeds for the years to come. They are aware of the attrition, and the fact that the pipeline is drying up. They are actually trying to be a little proactive...I agree that that they should make the contarct a priority. However, if there are not enough people to fill the flightdeck, there will not be a need...as we will all be looking for new, lower paying jobs.

EV120,

No problem, but I was simply responding to someone else who already hijacked the thread.... They had complained about ASA pay not keeping up with inflation and I was pointing out that we aren't even asking for it to keep up with inflation...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Come on Joe......enough already! While I agree with a lot of what you have to day regarding failings of scope (coming from PDT) you know darn well why we are where we are on 700 rates. We are already well above DCI rates for 70's (please don't say Horizon, you know their rates don't apply to ASA/DCI)

As a former 700 FO, I knew darn well there would not be much of an increase in pay, as ASA 70 FO's are the highest paid in the industry. I was hoping for a small increase in hourly rate, and the ability to make more with a bonus plan, rigs, and a more liberal trip swapping system.

Peace.

I brought this quote over from the other thread so as to stop the hijack...

Your exactly right, and I am just trying to point out how our side is as much to blame for the pickle we are in....

We didn't give in on 700 rates until 4.5 years into this negotiations..... We didn't give into the Bfund retirement until 4.5 years into this negotiations.... We drug things out the first year and half because we wanted to wait for things to improve (even though some of us said that was a mistake)

I am calling the ALPA chest thumpers on the carpet regarding their rhetoric..... If pilots really don't buy airplanes, and if pilot payrates really don't decide where aircraft are placed, and if we really need to keep up with inflation, and if we are really in such a strong position, then we SHOULD be asking for more on the 700....

As far as scope, we aren't even asking for anything of substance there.... We should be going for a single list, but ALPA national has convinced our MEC that isn't possible..... of course that is because they don't want to lose the ASA pilots in representational vote that would be triggered by a single list....

 

[79%N1]

Well, as single list aint gonna happen, and neither is an ALPA vote-in by Skywest! Where do we go from there? The only place to go now is solid scope that saves our jobs when SKW replaces our 50's with their 90's....and as an ATR driver, JM, be aware that when the ATR's leave and are replaced by whatever, I'll bet it won't be ASAflying them, but rather Colgon or Mesa or whomever else.....unless we protect our jobs!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well, as single list aint gonna happen, and neither is an ALPA vote-in by Skywest! Where do we go from there? The only place to go now is solid scope that saves our jobs when SKW replaces our 50's with their 90's....and as an ATR driver, JM, be aware that when the ATR's leave and are replaced by whatever, I'll bet it won't be ASAflying them, but rather Colgon or Mesa or whomever else.....unless we protect our jobs!

I agree with you about the ATR flying going to someone like Colgon or Mesa..... how do we negotiate scope language to protect that? If fact how do we protect any flying from going to CHQ, Mesa, Colgan, or PCL.... The only way to do that is through "Brand scope"..... and that requires holding ALPA's feet to the fire...

Regarding your first point, you say that a single list won't happen and a Skywest ALPA vote won't happen.... I agree with you about the Skywest ALPA vote, but why do you say that a single list won't happen? What scope language are you looking for? The current proposal won't get it done......

 

[79%N1]

All current flying done by ASA stays at ASA. Count the airframes, count the block hours.....voila! Scope!

 

[JoeMerchant]

All current flying done by ASA stays at ASA. Count the airframes, count the block hours.....voila! Scope!

Your more likely to get a single list.... Skywest can't control how much flying it get's from Delta.... What your asking for would necessitate bargaining with DAL managament..... I'm all for it, but ALPA says that is impossible.....

A single list is attainable and is probably the best we can do at this point..... The rest relies on ALPA national and the DAL MEC to negotiate brand scope...

I encourage you and all to look at the open issues list on the ALPA website.... We are actually very close on scope.... and it isn't worth a darn...

ASA can still get rid of aircraft..... If they "transfer aircraft", the first four in any given 12 month period are a "free pass".... no pilots have to go with the aircraft...

In other words, Skywest management could retire as many 50 seaters as they want, while adding as many 700/900s they want to the Skywest side... no penalty and no transfer of pilots....

In addition, they could transfer 4 700s every 12 months from ASA to Skywest with no penalty and no transfer of pilots...

Look at it.... you are being sold a load of cr@p...... And it is far from what you are looking for.... It is time to hold the union accountable....

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Joe,

Since you indirectly took a run at the union leadership positions and promised a contract within 90 days...can you tell us what that contract would have looked like?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,

Since you indirectly took a run at the union leadership positions and promised a contract within 90 days...can you tell us what that contract would have looked like?

There's no way to say exactly what it would like, but it would have been very close to managements current offer with a single list, or at least scope that is better than we are currenty proposing on the ALPA side....

Has anyone even read the open issues list? The scope that is open is worthless.... Without scope, it doesn't matter what the payrates end up being...

 

[FishandFly]

That's why you had no chance in winning. No one is interested in conceding to managements zero-net-gain philosophy.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Thought I'd start a new thread rather than continue it on the UND thread...

Someone brought up how ASA pay isn't keeping up with inflation.... That's a good point....

The union says pilots don't determine where airplanes end up, and pilot's don't buy airplanes....

The union also says that we are in a strong position now because of the pilot shortage...

If these two statements are true, then why don't we ask for Horizon payrates plus COLA on the 700? If not that much, then why not at least Horizon 700 rates? Why not our current rates adjusted for inflation?

Seems to be a disconnect between the rhetoric and what we are asking for..... If it doesn't matter what the rates are, and if we are in such a strong position, then why don't we ask for more on the 700?

I'm confused. You used to think the union was unreasonable and that it's folly to be the highest paid on anything because you only make yourself a target... a'la Comair. Now you want to be the highest paid -700 pilots in the world? Why the change of heart, Joe? What's your motive?

 

[JoeMerchant]

That's why you had no chance in winning. No one is interested in conceding to managements zero-net-gain philosophy.

Scope isn't a "zero-net-gain philosophy"..... it's the foundation to build gains upon..... Time for us to understand that....

Actually the rest of it isn't "zero-net-gain" either.... have you read it? Probably not, as most people haven't.....