ASA 700 rates....

[Stifler's Mom]

Joe,

Since you indirectly took a run at the union leadership positions and promised a contract within 90 days...can you tell us what that contract would have looked like?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,

Since you indirectly took a run at the union leadership positions and promised a contract within 90 days...can you tell us what that contract would have looked like?

There's no way to say exactly what it would like, but it would have been very close to managements current offer with a single list, or at least scope that is better than we are currenty proposing on the ALPA side....

Has anyone even read the open issues list? The scope that is open is worthless.... Without scope, it doesn't matter what the payrates end up being...

 

[FishandFly]

That's why you had no chance in winning. No one is interested in conceding to managements zero-net-gain philosophy.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Thought I'd start a new thread rather than continue it on the UND thread...

Someone brought up how ASA pay isn't keeping up with inflation.... That's a good point....

The union says pilots don't determine where airplanes end up, and pilot's don't buy airplanes....

The union also says that we are in a strong position now because of the pilot shortage...

If these two statements are true, then why don't we ask for Horizon payrates plus COLA on the 700? If not that much, then why not at least Horizon 700 rates? Why not our current rates adjusted for inflation?

Seems to be a disconnect between the rhetoric and what we are asking for..... If it doesn't matter what the rates are, and if we are in such a strong position, then why don't we ask for more on the 700?

I'm confused. You used to think the union was unreasonable and that it's folly to be the highest paid on anything because you only make yourself a target... a'la Comair. Now you want to be the highest paid -700 pilots in the world? Why the change of heart, Joe? What's your motive?

 

[JoeMerchant]

That's why you had no chance in winning. No one is interested in conceding to managements zero-net-gain philosophy.

Scope isn't a "zero-net-gain philosophy"..... it's the foundation to build gains upon..... Time for us to understand that....

Actually the rest of it isn't "zero-net-gain" either.... have you read it? Probably not, as most people haven't.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm confused. You used to think the union was unreasonable and that it's folly to be the highest paid on anything because you only make yourself a target... a'la Comair. Now you want to be the highest paid -700 pilots in the world? Why the change of heart, Joe? What's your motive?

JP, I am trying to illustrate a point about listening to everything the union tells us and blindly believing it....

I am not advocating Horizon payrates..... But indirectly the union is advocating it and not delivering it.....

If you believe all that ALPA says, then you should be advocating Horizon rates..... If you advocate shooting for the middle of the pack, then we are already there.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

JP, I am trying to illustrate a point about listening to everything the union tells us and blindly believing it....

I am not advocating Horizon payrates..... But indirectly the union is advocating it and not delivering it.....

If you believe all that ALPA says, then you should be advocating Horizon rates..... If you advocate shooting for the middle of the pack, then we are already there.....

OK, I'm officially confused. I need another drink!

 

[JoeMerchant]

OK, I'm officially confused. I need another drink!

Sorry JP..... have another boat drink and it will all make sense...

I am trying to show how the "hardline ALPA chest-thumping" argument doesn't make sense...

It goes as follows....

We don't buy airplanes, and we don't pay for airplanes. They aren't placed due to pilot payrates...

We are in the driver's seat because there is a pilot shortage and we can't be replaced...

We need to keep up with inflation....

Based on those "hardline ALPA chest-thumping" arguments, we should be asking for more in terms of 700 payrates....

I am simply trying to illustrate how weak the "hardline" argument is...

It's time for the MEC to start managing pilot expectations......

 

[John Pennekamp]

It's time for the MEC to start managing pilot expectations......

Ok, now THAT I understand. The MEC has done a poor job of this,. and even 'ol JP can share the blame on that.

Question is what to do?

Realistically, we can trade 2-3 years of retro for scope. And I agree that any scope we may get is WOERTHless because no scope clause ever written hasn't been reneged on or undermined. Nevertheless, it's there to at least make transfers a LITTLE more difficult. But regardless, the pilot group needs to lower its expectations. This was ALWAYS going to be a QOL contract, not a $$$ contract!!! When did it suddenly become about $$$?!!!

Either way, this thing won't be settled until after the Skywest vote is settled.

 

[FishandFly]

Scope isn't a "zero-net-gain philosophy"..... it's the foundation to build gains upon..... Time for us to understand that....

Actually the rest of it isn't "zero-net-gain" either.... have you read it? Probably not, as most people haven't.....

Your trust in management is at fault here.

Asa would have no problem with offering light years of scope protection should we offer to work for for low wages. Your desire to do so baffles the mind.

Your presumption is consistently that we can not have both decent scope protection and appropriate pay.

Asa has plenty of profit to direct appropriately towards the pilots, and there failure to do so over the past 5 years netting them an additional profit in the hundred million dollar range is only reason more to stick to our guns, not run with our tail between our legs.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ok, now THAT I understand. The MEC has done a poor job of this,. and even 'ol JP can share the blame on that.

Question is what to do?

Realistically, we can trade 2-3 years of retro for scope. And I agree that any scope we may get is WOERTHless because no scope clause ever written hasn't been reneged on or undermined. Nevertheless, it's there to at least make transfers a LITTLE more difficult. But regardless, the pilot group needs to lower its expectations. This was ALWAYS going to be a QOL contract, not a $$$ contract!!! When did it suddenly become about $$$?!!!

Either way, this thing won't be settled until after the Skywest vote is settled.

It became $$$ when nobody managed the expectations of the pilots.... This was one of many mistakes in these negotiations..... Dragging things out for the first year and half was another.....

As far as "what to do"..... Demand the current MEC change courses or they will be thrown out..... To be fair, I think DU gets it and could stay... The rest need to change or they go....

Go look at the scope open issues..... They aren't far apart, and our current position doesn't prevent Skywest from dismantling us over time....

If you can't get contractual scope to protect yourself, then you need to be cost competitive.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Your trust in management is at fault here.

I don't trust management and I don't trust ALPA... I would encourage everyone to take the same position.... Neither is to be trusted.... I would say that your trust in ALPA is at fault here..

Asa would have no problem with offering light years of scope protection should we offer to work for for low wages. Your desire to do so baffles the mind.

I don't desire "to work for low wages".... I also don't desire to have my job shifted to someone else..... Is that so hard to understand? We could get real scope and not have to take a paycut..... We just won't get the raise that some of you are expecting.....

Your presumption is consistently that we can not have both decent scope protection and appropriate pay.

Look at our current scope proposal...... IT ISN'T DECENT..... IT IS WORTHLESS.......

Asa has plenty of profit to direct appropriately towards the pilots, and there failure to do so over the past 5 years netting them an additional profit in the hundred million dollar range is only reason more to stick to our guns, not run with our tail between our legs.

First, it was ASA ALPA that is responsible for the first year and a half of dragging things out, despite the advice of some of us....

Second, then answer my question about why we are asking for so little in scope and 700 pay.... Looks like we are selling ourselves short.... What say you? Are you going to tell me that ASA and Skywest can't afford Horizon rates on the 700? If it was only about "affording it", then we should ask for more on the 700....

 

[EV120]

One thing I have to agree with Joe on, kind of, the Line Check Airman are getting shafted with the proposed language, while the instructors are getting raises.

I have voiced my objections to the MEC, Reps, and negotiators. I try and remind them who has job with the highest risk in the company? Who should be paid commensurate with that risk? Someone who is always inside? No the ones who fly in effect single pilot, the ones who are the first to fly the planes after subcontracted MX, the ones who ferry broken aircraft.

Because the group is being sold, we will lose quite a few great folks...and lose some of the high quality training and safety we have all come to enjoy. I get the feeling the group is being sold out on pure jealousy of what we already have. I say, keep what we have...negotiate something else. The language is already there.

 

[Jmoney]

Happy....

There's no way to say exactly what it would like, but it would have been very close to managements current offer with a single list, or at least scope that is better than we are currenty proposing on the ALPA side....

Has anyone even read the open issues list? The scope that is open is worthless.... Without scope, it doesn't matter what the payrates end up being...

Blah, blah, blah.......
Easy to sit around, spout platitudes, and say what would have, could have, should have happened.

You have not done crap for us, and if elected, you would not have done crap for us. You were elected long ago to a position, but guess, what-chose not to do crap. Just resign in protest after the realization that such a position may in fact involve some actions concerning crap-doing ....

-Holy crap, you are getting lame....

-Crap-tard....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Blah, blah, blah.......
Easy to sit around, spout platitudes, and say what would have, could have, should have happened.

You have not done crap for us, and if elected, you would not have done crap for us. You were elected long ago to a position, but guess, what-chose not to do crap. Just resign in protest after the realization that such a position may in fact involve some actions concerning crap-doing ....

-Holy crap, you are getting lame....

-Crap-tard....

Another well stated position of the status quo.... This is the position of your leadership..... Jmoney, you speak the position of ALPA well.... Thank you....