ARW TA?

[RJPilott]

Any details?

 

[CRJ Driver]

It wont pass, go away.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

We over at ACA are very curious as to whether or not AWAC's pilot group ratifies this TA. IMHO, I don’t think that modest pilot concessions will matter in the affirmation of the UEX agreements.

Soon, we will be presented with a similar package from our MEC. Without knowing the details of the Bain [UAL’s consulting group] 'cost plus' bidding process, it is very difficult to say what the ultimate outcome of a subsequent vote would be. The current sentiment is not garnering much support....and stands very little chance of passing. It is my understanding that the ACO & ARW MEC's are working together regarding this very difficult situation.

Best of luck to all the guys at Wisconsin....we feel your pain & support you.

Blueridgeflyer

 

[lionflyer]

I haven't been to any road shows yet but from what I can gather, it's an 8yr deal (which is crazy). I guess the company wanted 14 yrs. Pay is cut 7% on the CRJ & 9% on the BAE 146 with a 1.5% increase every year (whoopee). Our Negociating Committee unanomoulsy approved this TA but the vibe I'm getting from the other pilots is quite opposite.
Thanks MESA.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

That's a significant package. Does it include any provisions for returning to the current agreement should UAL immerge from Chap 11?

Blueridgeflyer

 

[Rottweiller]

It wont pass, go away.

That is what they said about our current contract in 2001.

Everyone is focused on the pay cut based on tiny bits of info that have gotten out and not on the whole TA. There are few changes overall and doom and gloom is abound though incomplete information.

Yes there is a pay cut and a MINIMUM of 1.5% increase a year but other factors go along with this 1.5% and current rates will be back in a few years.

The Company wanted to go in there cutting and slicing away at everything and the NC stopped that. It could have been far worse. Just wait and see what the full TA is in a day or so and attend the roadshows and get the REAL facts about everything before you decide.

 

[surplus1]

Here's a dumb question. Why did you need to make concessions to pilot contract at all? Is the Company losing money or is this just a fear tactic that management has invent because of UAL?

How much money would this really save and how is that going to "save" Air Wisconsin?

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

That's a significant package. Does it include any provisions for returning to the current agreement should UAL immerge from Chap 11?

Blueridgeflyer

 

[Beechnut]

Is the Company losing money or is this just a fear tactic that management has invent because of UAL?

This seems to be a point that I must be missing. I've heard the argument before "WE are not losing money, United is!" Well, the way I see it, we are only making money because our biggest customer, UAL, is still paying us. Our biggest customer has just filed CH11 because it CANNOT pay us (along with others). We must lower our cost so that our biggest customer, again: UAL, can return to profitability so that we can continue to be profitable.

Good question Blueridegeflyer. Don't know the answer as we haven't seen it. I can't imagine how it would due to the fact the entire structure of UAL has been changed so that their costs will continue to be lower than pre CH11.

I'm holding my breath until I can read it and go to a roadshow.

Good luck ACA and SkyWest! F--- Mesa!

S.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Thanks Mesa!

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

My appologies for the double posting...not sure why that happend

All of this is deeply troublesome, but my biggest issue is with the 1.5% annual raise (obviously coupled with the annual bump). All things being equal, an individual would not stay at pace with the nominal increase in inflation. This is financial suicide....& I suspect your pilot group will not sign off on the idea.

Blueridgeflyer

 

[Beechnut]

Nothing is for sure. Again, WE HAVEN"T SEE THE TA YET. I have to make this point as some of our guys are already crying without reading A THING. So I don't know what the bump of 1.5% is. Plus longevity? or just plus a currnet book? Don't know. Will know soon.

S.

 

[RJPilott]

Will the TA go to membership vote? I heard that the ARW MEC may use MEC Ratification. Hope this is not the case.

 

[Beechnut]

The MEC can't vote for us. (I have to get my copy of the by-laws out, but I'm positive.) The MEC can approve the TA to be sent to the pilot group for a vote, but they cannot implement work rules on us without our say. I THINK this was different at ACA, didn't the MEC vote in the contract with out a general pilot vote?

S.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Yes, it is correct that ACA has MEC ratification. However, the leadership has indicated that they seek membership ratification on a concessionary package. They did the same last year for the charter LOA....which they obviously endorsed & we rejected.

Blueridgeflyer

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Blueridger,

Just got home from ORD and DEN. I had an opportunity to speak with several of our pilots and most feel as I do about this TA, 8ys a no can do. That would mean 10yrs under this contract and most of us are unwilling to do that. I am all for helping out the company with a SLIGHT reduction in pay, the operative word here being SLIGHT this due the b itch for hire airline (mesa) but there are several issues in this TA that would have to be changed to get my and many of our brothers and sisters on the property to vote it in.

WD.

 

[Mookie]

Whiskey Dude, and BlueRidger,

do you guys have separate pay rates for 70-90 seats in your contract already, or are they currently under negotiation? For AirWisc....do those rates fall under the BAC pay scale??? Also...thanks to the great AirWisc crew that gave me a ride the other day...true professionals!!!

mookie

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Mookie,

In this TA that is being proposed there is a seperate scale for the 70 seat RJ however, we have none and there has been no talk outside of rumors about getting them and even if we did there is a four yr back log on the a/c so for all intensive purposes in my opinion it was nothing more than a ploy to help get this TA passed.

Glad to see that we took good care of you on your trip but really that's no suprise because AWAC and it's pilot group are truly professionals.

WD.

 

[45000BTU's]

Mookie,
The 70 seat rate is actually our current 50 seat rate. They gave back the 7% cut for 70 seat drivers. As it was explained, the rate was so that the other ALPA regional carriers that are in negotiations would have a basis for negotiation in their current talks.

 

[surplus1]

This seems to be a point that I must be missing. I've heard the argument before "WE are not losing money, United is!" Well, the way I see it, we are only making money because our biggest customer, UAL, is still paying us. Our biggest customer has just filed CH11 because it CANNOT pay us (along with others). We must lower our cost so that our biggest customer, again: UAL, can return to profitability so that we can continue to be profitable.
S.

Thank you for your observations. Here's the next dumb question.

Do you actually believe that if AWAC pilots decided to fly for free, it would have any real and material impact on the survival of United Airlines or its ability to recover from bankruptcy?

In case you do, on what basis did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Group,

I guess my next question would be directed towards the SkyWest pilots. I understand MGMT already imposed a concessionary package...which is not surprising, since there are no union safeguards. Our MEC is meeting tomorrow to discuss the nuances of the ARW TA. It is becoming clear, at least to me, that any pilot action at ACA and ARW would occur after each company's bids are submitted to Bain. This is a positive development as it increases leverage to the negotiating committees. I presume that there will be some tweaking involved after the fact. FYI, each of the seven companies has received 10-day extensions from Bain.

I give our team credit...they are exercising their due diligence on this matter. The way I see it, we should avoid a knee jerk TA (no offense meant to ARW...as they may be in a different financial state) as ACA is still profitable & has over $200M in unleveraged cash on hand. But I’m sure we will see something within the next couple of weeks.

Blueridgeflyer

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

As for the 70 seat CRJ...we have no provision for those. Obviously, MGMT is playing this card in the negotiation, but the aforementioned backlog at Bombardier makes this vaporware. Frankly, I am in no mood to entertain thoughts of neutering our contract for the sake of 20 additional seats.

Blueridgeflyer

 

[Jeepman]

Blueridge,

The only concessions have been no pay for newhires while in training, however the top 3 execs all did take a pay cut. We have heard that pay cuts are coming in the form of a pay proposal for the same pay to fly the 50 & 90 seat RJ's. Whether or not that will pass is beyond me.

BTW I sense that you feel that we are a not that great because we don't have any "union safegaurds" hmm.............I can see those safegaurds have worked well for MESA & all the other union carriers who have furloughed. While I think our SAPA is a joke I fail to see how a union would help us as much as a threat of a union does.

SkyWest has yet to furlough 1 pilot in their 30 year history.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Jeepman,

Not at all sir! You guys are a 1st rate operation all the way. Not knowing the intricate details of SAPA, I am guessing that you have some form of limited control over compensation? Please educate us on how this works. IMHO, ALPA national needs to step in on the UEX matter on behalf of ACA & ARW. I would like to see a well orchestrated public relation campaign launched.

Blueridgeflyer

 

[rightrudder]

The TA is a POS. I've read it and it will cost me over 800 a month by august 2005. The 7% and 9% paycuts are for this past years rates. All the step increases in our current contract are gone. Just take the previous rates, cut them 7% and add 1.5% each year to each year of serevice.

As an crj fo, it will be a 7% cut now, goes to 10% of what I would have made in august, and up from there.

Not to mention weakening of work rules (back to 16 hour duty days, rigs changed), paying twice what we are now for insurance, cut in retirement, cut in per diem, cut in vacation pay, 8 year duration. No chance to get back what we gave up when things change. NO FREAKIN WAY!

I cannot believe our MEC signed off on this one. Perhaps it had something to do with the haste in which management forced them to come up with something, I don't know. I am willing to bet my job that our management will renegoiate when we vote no on this.

RR

 

[B1900DFO]

Whiskey drivers--
So what are you guys hearing on the line? It seemed like this board was full of mesa guys talking trash about their TA and then it passed by 70+%. I know at pdt everyone was pissed but we agreed to concessions by a wide margin (scared of being replaced by Mesa). Do you think this will pass? It seems like we (pilots) have lost so many battles lately it would be great if we could win one...

 

[B1900DFO]

On a side note I just learned that Tilton is using his expense account to cover his $18,000/PER MONTH condo! I guess all the hard work that he has put into UAL's recovery plan warrants such excess.