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Arrrrg, 260 nm with the flaps jammed 15degrees down...
- Thread starter Scorch
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GravityHater
Well-known member
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Guitar Guy
Charvel - San Dimas
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Seeing as you're not a mechanic (there wasn't one available), what "diagnostic" did you "run" to determien that all was hunkey dorey before departing in this airplane? You didn't describe altering the aircraft in a manner appropriate to the administrator or obtaining a ferry permit...only that you had to absolutely be home. Get there itis kills.
In the past few years, I've seen a cockpit fill up with a thick misted cloud of H5606 hydraulic fluid. The only warning was a very slight whiff of the stuff before hand. I've seen landing gear fail up and down. I had a trim stick full down a few days ago just after emerging from the overcast; the only indication had been an almost imperceptible slowing of the trim before. I had to land it that way. I've had flaps retract on their own; they're down, and bang, they're up. Engines pump out thirty gallons of oil in very short order, over hot exhaust and the wing, with nothing more than a very slight dribble of oil to forewarn. Lighting catch fire when it appeared okay...just a flicker, that's all. Two small stains, hardly noticable even when you knew where to look, fortold the fact that both wings were cracked completely through on a large four engine airplane.
Yet you've run your own diagnostic, and determined that the motor is the problem. Not a binding, not anything else, but the motor. No shorting out before the breaker, nor after, nor the potential for a fire (which a breaker may or may not help interrupt), nor any wiring damage when the breaker popped in the first place (the breaker is there to protect the wiring, not the motor). You're sure that nothing else is wrong...but what caused the motor to fail?
Very often small things foretell big things, and the proverbial tip of the iceberg is all you see. You didn't mention making the flight legally, so the implication is that it was conducted sans 91.213 or a ferry permit. But as you said, you absolutely had to be home, so that would make everything okay, is that right.
At least you didn't die. That's the final determination that everything is okay and you did good.
In the past few years, I've seen a cockpit fill up with a thick misted cloud of H5606 hydraulic fluid. The only warning was a very slight whiff of the stuff before hand. I've seen landing gear fail up and down. I had a trim stick full down a few days ago just after emerging from the overcast; the only indication had been an almost imperceptible slowing of the trim before. I had to land it that way. I've had flaps retract on their own; they're down, and bang, they're up. Engines pump out thirty gallons of oil in very short order, over hot exhaust and the wing, with nothing more than a very slight dribble of oil to forewarn. Lighting catch fire when it appeared okay...just a flicker, that's all. Two small stains, hardly noticable even when you knew where to look, fortold the fact that both wings were cracked completely through on a large four engine airplane.
Yet you've run your own diagnostic, and determined that the motor is the problem. Not a binding, not anything else, but the motor. No shorting out before the breaker, nor after, nor the potential for a fire (which a breaker may or may not help interrupt), nor any wiring damage when the breaker popped in the first place (the breaker is there to protect the wiring, not the motor). You're sure that nothing else is wrong...but what caused the motor to fail?
Very often small things foretell big things, and the proverbial tip of the iceberg is all you see. You didn't mention making the flight legally, so the implication is that it was conducted sans 91.213 or a ferry permit. But as you said, you absolutely had to be home, so that would make everything okay, is that right.
At least you didn't die. That's the final determination that everything is okay and you did good.
it was determined to be the flap motor due to a simple voltometer test, concluding that the flap motor was not running a current. It was thus run cold. As far as you "lecturing" me regarding the extent of the potential danger, please do not exaserbate the situation, as I had a former A&P looking over the problem alongside. Please utilze some logical discretion. I was not flying with a hole in the plane, a loose wing, nor do I appreciate any assumption that my lapse in judgement was to be the cause of an almost fatal flight, grow up, use some logic.
siucavflight
Back from the forsaken
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2003
- Posts
- 3,512
Scorch said:
Then why even bother to post here then? You dont like criticism but you knew you were going to get it.
What you did was dumb. What if you had an engine failure right after takeoff and the field you could have made is suddenly out of reach. Get there itis does kill. Abd you are fortunate that it didnt. However you did not learn anything from this, after all "at least you didnt die."
KeroseneSnorter
Robust Member
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2003
- Posts
- 1,530
Scorch said:
I see two errors in your judgment, The first being that you flew the airplane with a known problem without a ferry permit. Your second error was even worse than your first, you told anybody who reads this board that you did it!!!
Gadzooks man, never tattle on yourself!!!
**GADZOOKS is a technical term!!!
Uncle Sparky
Beano Tester
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2004
- Posts
- 247
A comfortable seat is of little value if you haven't popcorn to go with it.
So, which was it, then?
A former mechanic? Is that like a mechanic who grew up to be a pilot? A mechanic who had his certificates revoked? A reformed mechanic who saw the light? No mechanic on the field, or a mechanic on the field. Your words, try not to get upset.
The motor was thus run cold. What on earth does that mean? I'm a mechanic, and I haven't a clue what you just said. Do flap motors "run a current?" I surely don't know. That former mechanic of yours, the one who isn't on the field, he sure is smart. Did he perhaps obtain a ferry permit for you, after he used that "voltometer" to find out that your cold flap motor wasn't running a current?
Do those "voltometers" come in pretty colors?
So, which was it, then?
A former mechanic? Is that like a mechanic who grew up to be a pilot? A mechanic who had his certificates revoked? A reformed mechanic who saw the light? No mechanic on the field, or a mechanic on the field. Your words, try not to get upset.
The motor was thus run cold. What on earth does that mean? I'm a mechanic, and I haven't a clue what you just said. Do flap motors "run a current?" I surely don't know. That former mechanic of yours, the one who isn't on the field, he sure is smart. Did he perhaps obtain a ferry permit for you, after he used that "voltometer" to find out that your cold flap motor wasn't running a current?
Do those "voltometers" come in pretty colors?
freightdogfred
Malcontent
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Posts
- 990
avbug said:
Well, he didn't have near the type of trouble you relate in your many exploits...
I'd say his judge of his AC being airworthy was far better than yours, judging by all the problems you've had. Perhaps YOU should be a little more discerning with the AC you decide to go airborne with...at the very least find another employer.
dash8driver
Foamy Specialist
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2002
- Posts
- 1,217
TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Posts
- 3,050
dash8driver
Foamy Specialist
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2002
- Posts
- 1,217
TonyC said:No, no, no... not hardly. Were that the case, I would have already contributed several posts on the matter. No, this is too fun to watch, and besides, I have to wipe the butter off my fingers before I touch the keyboard.
More popcorn, anyone?
ok evuryone! tony be on vacashun! time to let lose withe the speeling, ya'll!
pass the popcorn..
Freightdogfred,
My own experience is in all liklihood FAR greater and much more extensive than his, both in the flight department and in the shop. Many of my experiences have occured in equipment placed in circumstances and in missions that places stresses on the personnel, equipment, airframes, engines, etc, that are many fold that of most aircraft, including most combat operations.
I don't need to worry about weather a former mechanic is hovering over my shoulder. On most missions, everybody on board is a certificated and experienced mechanic and inspector, each with a full complement of tools aboard, each with type specific experience, and the support of a full shop.
You haven't found accounts of me taking off without ferry permits, without properly addressing the problem, or ignorantly posting about such actions and then defending them without any sure knowledge of what took place, either.
I certainly do make mistakes, and post them educationally...but this poster isn't posting to educate. I'm not certain what his reason for braggodocio here is, other than to tell us about his exploit, in which he sees no problem, and then puncutate it with "at least I didn't die."
Moreover, then he defends the actions, still seeing nothing wrong. Hardly an example for the masses, to which no specific commentary is welcome, and his only response is "grow up."
Instead, "thank you" is in order. My point here is merely that very often small items mask much bigger problems. This happens in small and large airplanes, private operations, and in air carriers. A slight whiff of smoke and an aircraft is burning and then in a swamp. A gear light, and the crew loses situational awareness and puts another airplane in a swamp. A slight rudder action, and a vertical stab falls into an underlying neighborhood. The concorde's tail falls off...over 40 times. Our most common type in flight has repeated rudder hardovers...and still no conclusive determination has been found...just guesswork patches. An airplane filled with passengers in Canada sees several unusual warnings in the air, decides to return, and discovers a fire that would have killed everybody had they remained airborne. The common thread...small things become big things.
This summer I was in a shop when a gentleman arrived to check on an airplane that was being worked on there. I commented on his flaps being down; he told me they were up because he had moved the flap switch up. I pointed them out to him, and he learned that his flaps had failed down. He and I brought it to the shop, where the shop foreman told him they'd have a quick look, but didn't service that type in the shop. However, they had a facility about five miles away that did, and suggested he fly the airplane there to have a look.
We discussed it, and he readily agreed to take the airplane there. I told him absolutely not, and I confiscated his keys. After some direct discussion on the matter, the shop foreman and the pilot both agreed that perhaps it wasn't such a smart idea after all. I obtained some tools and wire from the shop and effected the repair with their permission, and accompanied the pilot in his airplane for a flight.
My "exploits" are nothing such; these are experience based occurances with a point and a lesson to be learned, and are applied as such. Like them or not. Most have occured with different employers, in vastly different types of flying, from crop dusting to fire fighting to various types of air carriers, and most types of operations in between. Some have been under favorable civil circumstances, some have not.
Some have been government operations. Most have been backed by very capable shops, often repair stations, with close government, FAA, and other oversight. Many have been much better maintained than most typical 121 equipment, some of it much older, some of it much newer. Often piloted by mechanics as well as pilots.
Many years ago, NASA did a study that determined that our aircraft in firefighting incur a stress rate one thousand times that of aircraft in civil commercial operations. Operating regularly in severe and extreme turbulence, ingesting a lot of smoke, FOD, and debris, and all the other things these aircraft go through including regular loading and unloading in flight under very trying conditions, mean that things do break...that's par for the territory. However, we don't casually throw caution to the wind and say, "at least we didn't die." We fix things, we approach everything with every bit the professional attitude that any paid aviator should, and we accomplish the mission assigned us. Regardless of the type of flying we do.
I still do this in the summer, along with several other types of flying. I still do it well, and I will not apol;ogise for the job I do. If you haven't the gumption or the testicles that put you in that position, brightspark, don't cry about it, and don't decry me for doing my job. I enjoy it, I'm good at it, and yes, I have the scars to show for it. When you can show the same, then open your mouth and tell me about it. Until then, perhaps you should be content to learn something.
After all that, are you really prepared to be my lecturer when your own self-description reads:
My own experience is in all liklihood FAR greater and much more extensive than his, both in the flight department and in the shop. Many of my experiences have occured in equipment placed in circumstances and in missions that places stresses on the personnel, equipment, airframes, engines, etc, that are many fold that of most aircraft, including most combat operations.
I don't need to worry about weather a former mechanic is hovering over my shoulder. On most missions, everybody on board is a certificated and experienced mechanic and inspector, each with a full complement of tools aboard, each with type specific experience, and the support of a full shop.
You haven't found accounts of me taking off without ferry permits, without properly addressing the problem, or ignorantly posting about such actions and then defending them without any sure knowledge of what took place, either.
I certainly do make mistakes, and post them educationally...but this poster isn't posting to educate. I'm not certain what his reason for braggodocio here is, other than to tell us about his exploit, in which he sees no problem, and then puncutate it with "at least I didn't die."
Moreover, then he defends the actions, still seeing nothing wrong. Hardly an example for the masses, to which no specific commentary is welcome, and his only response is "grow up."
Instead, "thank you" is in order. My point here is merely that very often small items mask much bigger problems. This happens in small and large airplanes, private operations, and in air carriers. A slight whiff of smoke and an aircraft is burning and then in a swamp. A gear light, and the crew loses situational awareness and puts another airplane in a swamp. A slight rudder action, and a vertical stab falls into an underlying neighborhood. The concorde's tail falls off...over 40 times. Our most common type in flight has repeated rudder hardovers...and still no conclusive determination has been found...just guesswork patches. An airplane filled with passengers in Canada sees several unusual warnings in the air, decides to return, and discovers a fire that would have killed everybody had they remained airborne. The common thread...small things become big things.
This summer I was in a shop when a gentleman arrived to check on an airplane that was being worked on there. I commented on his flaps being down; he told me they were up because he had moved the flap switch up. I pointed them out to him, and he learned that his flaps had failed down. He and I brought it to the shop, where the shop foreman told him they'd have a quick look, but didn't service that type in the shop. However, they had a facility about five miles away that did, and suggested he fly the airplane there to have a look.
We discussed it, and he readily agreed to take the airplane there. I told him absolutely not, and I confiscated his keys. After some direct discussion on the matter, the shop foreman and the pilot both agreed that perhaps it wasn't such a smart idea after all. I obtained some tools and wire from the shop and effected the repair with their permission, and accompanied the pilot in his airplane for a flight.
My "exploits" are nothing such; these are experience based occurances with a point and a lesson to be learned, and are applied as such. Like them or not. Most have occured with different employers, in vastly different types of flying, from crop dusting to fire fighting to various types of air carriers, and most types of operations in between. Some have been under favorable civil circumstances, some have not.
Some have been government operations. Most have been backed by very capable shops, often repair stations, with close government, FAA, and other oversight. Many have been much better maintained than most typical 121 equipment, some of it much older, some of it much newer. Often piloted by mechanics as well as pilots.
Many years ago, NASA did a study that determined that our aircraft in firefighting incur a stress rate one thousand times that of aircraft in civil commercial operations. Operating regularly in severe and extreme turbulence, ingesting a lot of smoke, FOD, and debris, and all the other things these aircraft go through including regular loading and unloading in flight under very trying conditions, mean that things do break...that's par for the territory. However, we don't casually throw caution to the wind and say, "at least we didn't die." We fix things, we approach everything with every bit the professional attitude that any paid aviator should, and we accomplish the mission assigned us. Regardless of the type of flying we do.
I still do this in the summer, along with several other types of flying. I still do it well, and I will not apol;ogise for the job I do. If you haven't the gumption or the testicles that put you in that position, brightspark, don't cry about it, and don't decry me for doing my job. I enjoy it, I'm good at it, and yes, I have the scars to show for it. When you can show the same, then open your mouth and tell me about it. Until then, perhaps you should be content to learn something.
After all that, are you really prepared to be my lecturer when your own self-description reads:
Last edited:
Don't feel too bad, tony. I never intended brightspark in a complementary way, but I'm glad you took it to heart. I'm sorry to hear you spilled the hot popcorn in your lap. Fortunately there was no chance of hurting anything important.
Yep, I did confiscate the keys. I knew the pilot, he knew me, and he respected the action. It's not the first time I've taken keys, let the air out of a tire, grounded someone, or stopped someone from doing something stupid. It won't be the last. I'm glad you found it funny, though. Someone ought to take the original poster's keys, too.
The repair? An internal short in a wire, owing to a bend in the wire; I could see it arcing through the insulation. A butt splice, a new crimped terminal, and a system check. One burned wire at the flap motor, owing to a short at the motor caused by something touching the terminal providing a short to ground. Replacement of that terminal end, proper insulation, and the problem was ops checked normal, signed off per the appropriate documents, and approved for return to service. I was present and observed the aircraft returned to service by flying it, and the matter was resolved. No charge.
Had he elected to fly it with that short, the motor could have moved uncommanded. Who knows but that he could have developed a flap failure or lack of symmetry, too? Why chance it, and what is so important that one must take off with a known problem and no known soloution?
Yep, I did confiscate the keys. I knew the pilot, he knew me, and he respected the action. It's not the first time I've taken keys, let the air out of a tire, grounded someone, or stopped someone from doing something stupid. It won't be the last. I'm glad you found it funny, though. Someone ought to take the original poster's keys, too.
The repair? An internal short in a wire, owing to a bend in the wire; I could see it arcing through the insulation. A butt splice, a new crimped terminal, and a system check. One burned wire at the flap motor, owing to a short at the motor caused by something touching the terminal providing a short to ground. Replacement of that terminal end, proper insulation, and the problem was ops checked normal, signed off per the appropriate documents, and approved for return to service. I was present and observed the aircraft returned to service by flying it, and the matter was resolved. No charge.
Had he elected to fly it with that short, the motor could have moved uncommanded. Who knows but that he could have developed a flap failure or lack of symmetry, too? Why chance it, and what is so important that one must take off with a known problem and no known soloution?
TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Posts
- 3,050
He certainly did respect me; I asked for, and proceeded to spend a hundred twenty thousand dolllars of his money later that afternoon on repairs for one of his aircraft. I never said he was very smart however, else he wouldn't have volunteered and been willing to depart with the flaps stuck down and fly it to another location.
Some folks need to be protected from their own stupidity. I've had friends that respected me, whose car keys I confiscated and allowed to take a taxi, instead...go figure. You never did that??
Don't spillthe tobasco sauce in your lap. It may be hard to explain.
Some folks need to be protected from their own stupidity. I've had friends that respected me, whose car keys I confiscated and allowed to take a taxi, instead...go figure. You never did that??
Don't spillthe tobasco sauce in your lap. It may be hard to explain.
He wasn't drunk. Just not too bright. A little like you, sir spark.
I see you managed to get the butter off your fingers long enough to play spelling cop.
I can't tell you how grateful I am. In the likely event I'm ever captured by terrorists and threatened with death unless I can properly spell "t-A-b-a-s-c-o," I'll have your post to thank for that. Not to mention the liklihood that some future employer might include that on a qualification or entrance exam.
I see you managed to get the butter off your fingers long enough to play spelling cop.
I can't tell you how grateful I am. In the likely event I'm ever captured by terrorists and threatened with death unless I can properly spell "t-A-b-a-s-c-o," I'll have your post to thank for that. Not to mention the liklihood that some future employer might include that on a qualification or entrance exam.
avbug, again, you perhaps find comfort in the legalities presented by the FAA. I however, prefer to utilize my own judgement and discretion first and foremost, then, utilize the FAR legal issues. multimeters do indeed show conductivity, which, conclusively showed that the flap motor was not allowing current. At that juncture, the connections were thus removed, secured in non conductive material, and stowed. Once said tasks were completed, the fuse was then pulled, aka, "running cold" (this is quite a common term among A&P's, hence I question your validity here). I do, however, understand the transpariencies of your personality due to the personal attacks by insulting my intelligence with a wit-starved insult. Time to grow up, utilize the intellect you possess and make decisions on your own.
Oh, the "get homeness" of my situation is indeed a personal matter, as I am meeting with my doctor tomorrow over a potentially malignant internal issue.
Someone please delete this thread.
Oh, the "get homeness" of my situation is indeed a personal matter, as I am meeting with my doctor tomorrow over a potentially malignant internal issue.
Someone please delete this thread.
TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Posts
- 3,050
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