Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Army of one!! YEAH!!
- Thread starter FEDUPPILOT
- Start date
- Watchers 16
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
Saab, I know you have issues with me and my Lear posts, but this is an objective opinion: I always appreciate the time and research Avbug puts into his responses. I don't see the attitudes that you are attributing to him. In a perfect world, striving for excellence is always the best approach. For me, it's a watchword.
Since this isn't a perfect world, and we don't know what problems Feduppilot has had with management, either justified or unjustified, I am slow to condemn Feduppilot's anger. That's why I am questioning the actual limits of his responsibility, in the legal, contractual sense. Is his list of "job actions" a failure to meet his contractual obligations? I don't know.
What I do know is the value of having Avbug here on the board. I may never posess his depth of understanding of aviation in general, and aviation regulations in particular. Just like every flight I make, each post he makes teaches me something. There are many others here who share their abundant smarts about flying, and I for one am grateful that they care enough to help people like me to grow.
Sometimes, even I have a chance to illuminate a point or two, or share a joy of accomplishment. I think of that as giving something back.
Since this isn't a perfect world, and we don't know what problems Feduppilot has had with management, either justified or unjustified, I am slow to condemn Feduppilot's anger. That's why I am questioning the actual limits of his responsibility, in the legal, contractual sense. Is his list of "job actions" a failure to meet his contractual obligations? I don't know.
What I do know is the value of having Avbug here on the board. I may never posess his depth of understanding of aviation in general, and aviation regulations in particular. Just like every flight I make, each post he makes teaches me something. There are many others here who share their abundant smarts about flying, and I for one am grateful that they care enough to help people like me to grow.
Sometimes, even I have a chance to illuminate a point or two, or share a joy of accomplishment. I think of that as giving something back.
Last edited:
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
I've been trying to stay away from all these "emotion" charged threads, but this one caught me.
I empathize with the original poster, but I'm sorry to say that its just not CAL and its not just the airline industry. Its just business.
Its the reason I became restless and a career changer, but unfortunately I found that Airlines were run just as poorly as engineering firms.
And basically its "the bottom line", its capitalism run rampant, its a "sellout". When I was in Financial Management classes at the university, I'll never forget the mandate - the goal of financial management is to maximize the wealth of the shareholder. But our society has become impatient - the maximizing must occur today, short term. There is no building, no investment, no quality, no loyalty. Money, now, this instant, cut that expense, charge more for that and let the chips fall where they may. If I go bankrupt tomorrow, well I made my profit yesterday, so I'm OK and screw the rest.
The dot coms were just a microcosm of what is in store (I believe) for most of our industries. Go ahead, name a product that hasn't been altered by the here today mentality. I go to buy a car - unless I pay for the quality, it has a "run" life of about 5 years. A house's life span has dropped from 100 years to 30 years! My computer is designed to last about 4 years, but will be obsolete in 2 years. I buy a stapler, it lasts about 6 months. Have any of you stayed in a really clean, well furnished hotel room where everything works? Me neither. The housekeepers are unmotivated. The shampoos and soaps are made by the lowest bidder. The plumber is too expensive to call for every drip. Why "clean" the carpet when you can just spray deodorizer in three seconds?
Its rampant. I've never seen a sturdy chair in our crew rooms. Every table has paper underneath a leg because either the floor is crooked or the table leg has bent. Who is to blame? My company for probably buying the cheapest furniture? The furniture retailer for selling such a product? The furniture maker for making such inferior stuff with their name on it?
The Germans have an old saying - "I have no face to meet with my fist". It is a saying of utter frustration.
To the fed-up-pilot, I understand. I can't join you because then I truly do sell-out my soul. But I am hoping for a day when our ethics are restored from top to bottom. When I can trust what a man says and not have to "spin" anything about the words. A day when honesty counts for more than todays value of money. A day when you can pretty much tell a good person from a bad one.
And now a sick thought. We had a time called the roaring twenties. There were a group of well-to-do yuppie types that lolled around and didn't do much to contribute to society. There were gangsters and a criminal underground that was so entrenched that they could have created their own economy. There were crooked politicians, fat-cat owners, everybody making gobs of money in the stock market and then...... the bottom fell out, the market crashed, we had a depression and we went to war.
I am not wishing for anything like a war or a depression in my life because I fear I'm too weak to withstand it. But we need some kind of a tonic - something that allows us to be proud of what we do and make. I was tired of being told to "cut corners" in my old job. To "make do" with inferior products or staff. I came to the airlines because as a pilot I would be held to "near perfect" standards. Instead I get berated for not getting the plane out on time, I get told to "fly it and grieve it" when my health and safety are at issue, I get planes written up with "Ops check good" as an answer for mechanical parts wearing out. I'm back in the same old vice - I'm trying every day to do the best job possible and all I get is "I'm not contributing enough to the bottom line".
Let's see my frustration meter is pegged so I think I'll go play some golf - it can't get any worse!
I empathize with the original poster, but I'm sorry to say that its just not CAL and its not just the airline industry. Its just business.
Its the reason I became restless and a career changer, but unfortunately I found that Airlines were run just as poorly as engineering firms.
And basically its "the bottom line", its capitalism run rampant, its a "sellout". When I was in Financial Management classes at the university, I'll never forget the mandate - the goal of financial management is to maximize the wealth of the shareholder. But our society has become impatient - the maximizing must occur today, short term. There is no building, no investment, no quality, no loyalty. Money, now, this instant, cut that expense, charge more for that and let the chips fall where they may. If I go bankrupt tomorrow, well I made my profit yesterday, so I'm OK and screw the rest.
The dot coms were just a microcosm of what is in store (I believe) for most of our industries. Go ahead, name a product that hasn't been altered by the here today mentality. I go to buy a car - unless I pay for the quality, it has a "run" life of about 5 years. A house's life span has dropped from 100 years to 30 years! My computer is designed to last about 4 years, but will be obsolete in 2 years. I buy a stapler, it lasts about 6 months. Have any of you stayed in a really clean, well furnished hotel room where everything works? Me neither. The housekeepers are unmotivated. The shampoos and soaps are made by the lowest bidder. The plumber is too expensive to call for every drip. Why "clean" the carpet when you can just spray deodorizer in three seconds?
Its rampant. I've never seen a sturdy chair in our crew rooms. Every table has paper underneath a leg because either the floor is crooked or the table leg has bent. Who is to blame? My company for probably buying the cheapest furniture? The furniture retailer for selling such a product? The furniture maker for making such inferior stuff with their name on it?
The Germans have an old saying - "I have no face to meet with my fist". It is a saying of utter frustration.
To the fed-up-pilot, I understand. I can't join you because then I truly do sell-out my soul. But I am hoping for a day when our ethics are restored from top to bottom. When I can trust what a man says and not have to "spin" anything about the words. A day when honesty counts for more than todays value of money. A day when you can pretty much tell a good person from a bad one.
And now a sick thought. We had a time called the roaring twenties. There were a group of well-to-do yuppie types that lolled around and didn't do much to contribute to society. There were gangsters and a criminal underground that was so entrenched that they could have created their own economy. There were crooked politicians, fat-cat owners, everybody making gobs of money in the stock market and then...... the bottom fell out, the market crashed, we had a depression and we went to war.
I am not wishing for anything like a war or a depression in my life because I fear I'm too weak to withstand it. But we need some kind of a tonic - something that allows us to be proud of what we do and make. I was tired of being told to "cut corners" in my old job. To "make do" with inferior products or staff. I came to the airlines because as a pilot I would be held to "near perfect" standards. Instead I get berated for not getting the plane out on time, I get told to "fly it and grieve it" when my health and safety are at issue, I get planes written up with "Ops check good" as an answer for mechanical parts wearing out. I'm back in the same old vice - I'm trying every day to do the best job possible and all I get is "I'm not contributing enough to the bottom line".
Let's see my frustration meter is pegged so I think I'll go play some golf - it can't get any worse!
alimaui
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2002
- Posts
- 207
avbug said:
Yes, increasing professionalism is a very important part of the solution. But I think part of what FEDUPPILOT was saying was that he, at one point, was proud of the job he was doing. He would go the extra mile to be a valued member of the team. But in the end it did not matter. Mgmt still took advantage of the team. If Airline X was really concerned "giving 100%" they would not be flying short staffed to save a buck. If mgmt wants the best efforts of their staff, then the least the staff deserves is mgmt best efforts.
Nice job Tarp....
I think Tarps post is spot on. Great job of explaining the frustration of being a pro pilot in this day and age...and how management likes to treat pilots.
The first post was kind of....overly eloquent....but I understand where the dude was coming from. I've always wondered when management was going to figure out that those who control the thrust levers and the logbook writeups are not the ones you always want to be pissing off to save a nickel or a dime. They gotta give those airline legal departments something to do...work on those grey areas in the pilots contract....see if we can screw those overpaid, underworked, flyboys...all's fair...it's only business.
The second post by avbug is nothing but sarcasm.....why respect someone who talks like that? From now on when I see avbug, I'll be moving on to the next post....
I think Tarps post is spot on. Great job of explaining the frustration of being a pro pilot in this day and age...and how management likes to treat pilots.
The first post was kind of....overly eloquent....but I understand where the dude was coming from. I've always wondered when management was going to figure out that those who control the thrust levers and the logbook writeups are not the ones you always want to be pissing off to save a nickel or a dime. They gotta give those airline legal departments something to do...work on those grey areas in the pilots contract....see if we can screw those overpaid, underworked, flyboys...all's fair...it's only business.
The second post by avbug is nothing but sarcasm.....why respect someone who talks like that? From now on when I see avbug, I'll be moving on to the next post....
kilomike
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 155
Go Get Em, Feduppilot!!
Go for it, Feduppilot!!
No one can agree with you more that workers should be treated with dignity and respect. Bobbysamd said it best "management sows what it reaps".
My biggest business hero is Aaron Feuerstein. He is the president of Polartec. When the plant had a serious fire, instead of laying off his workers he kept them on the payroll. I saw him on a TV interview and he carried himself with class and grace. He said that it was the right thing to do. The company has rebuilt the plant. Let's buy lots of Polartec to support him and his fine company. By the way it is a union shop and Mr. Feuerstein works closely with the union. What an example for the business world.
Kilomike
Go for it, Feduppilot!!
No one can agree with you more that workers should be treated with dignity and respect. Bobbysamd said it best "management sows what it reaps".
My biggest business hero is Aaron Feuerstein. He is the president of Polartec. When the plant had a serious fire, instead of laying off his workers he kept them on the payroll. I saw him on a TV interview and he carried himself with class and grace. He said that it was the right thing to do. The company has rebuilt the plant. Let's buy lots of Polartec to support him and his fine company. By the way it is a union shop and Mr. Feuerstein works closely with the union. What an example for the business world.
Kilomike
I just got back from a trip and it's late, so I won't dive into a drawn out debate here. However, for those who would call me bitter; I stated that a man who accepts an agreed wage should give his best. If that makes me bitter, then so be it.
Bitterness would be posting a long tirade calling for mediocacy.
And yes...I am familiar with Bart Simpson. I enjoy the humor, but don't see him as the great philospher of the previous century. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned.
As for deeming myself Lord God Almighty...I find that both offensive and blasphemous, but it's a free country. Call it what you like. For the record, I worship Him, attend His church, and read His books. Otherwise, I'm just a very poor excuse for a humble servant who in all liklihood will never live well enough to pass judgement. But thanks for thinking of me.
Bitterness would be posting a long tirade calling for mediocacy.
And yes...I am familiar with Bart Simpson. I enjoy the humor, but don't see him as the great philospher of the previous century. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned.
As for deeming myself Lord God Almighty...I find that both offensive and blasphemous, but it's a free country. Call it what you like. For the record, I worship Him, attend His church, and read His books. Otherwise, I'm just a very poor excuse for a humble servant who in all liklihood will never live well enough to pass judgement. But thanks for thinking of me.
usair
lets see, usair the only hope they evr had was about a year a go when amr was looking at may be buying them out.
even then most of the captians that i met were worried about being able to hang on.
May be united will buy them , but united's charman said last year that if things did not get better for them they would fold, source of this news The Wall Street Jour, and CNBC The Business channel.
Which now beggs the /QUESTIONS , HAVE ANY AIRCARGO COMPANIES LAID OFF SINCE SEPT11TH?
lets see, usair the only hope they evr had was about a year a go when amr was looking at may be buying them out.
even then most of the captians that i met were worried about being able to hang on.
May be united will buy them , but united's charman said last year that if things did not get better for them they would fold, source of this news The Wall Street Jour, and CNBC The Business channel.
Which now beggs the /QUESTIONS , HAVE ANY AIRCARGO COMPANIES LAID OFF SINCE SEPT11TH?
aero99
just a member, not senior
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 394
I think avbugs point is that to be a professional means to act like a professional. Bastardizing the profession makes others look bad.
I though fedup's little story was a little amusing. At the same time I don't believe he does all those things. If all pilots had this attitude no one would have jobs because the companies you work for would be out of biz....
It is always fun to bash management. The orignal thread was a good vent, though it solves nothing. It is all business. If you don't like what your company does, then quit and find another...or start your own airline and you can steal all the paperclips and donuts to your hearts desire.
Just remember you're pilots out of choice. Be glad your not the bean counter who is really just another puppet in the chain of command just like the crew. It could be worse.......
I though fedup's little story was a little amusing. At the same time I don't believe he does all those things. If all pilots had this attitude no one would have jobs because the companies you work for would be out of biz....
It is always fun to bash management. The orignal thread was a good vent, though it solves nothing. It is all business. If you don't like what your company does, then quit and find another...or start your own airline and you can steal all the paperclips and donuts to your hearts desire.
Just remember you're pilots out of choice. Be glad your not the bean counter who is really just another puppet in the chain of command just like the crew. It could be worse.......
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
skykid
On Point
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2002
- Posts
- 759
I understand why Feduppilot is upset. I would keep doing the good job you used to do and work on uniting your fellow pilots. I think its a whole lot more honorable to go through the bargaining process and all walk off together, if it comes to that. I don't know what the attitudes of your fellow pilots are, but I believe a unified and determined work group could force changes. Put your energy into achieving that.
Pilotadjuster
I voted for Pedro
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 340
respect
I must agree with Timebuilder here. Respect is a two-way street, but substandard performance is never the way to "get even". I have had that problem MANY times in the business in which I work (insurance); long hours, ignorant management and supervisors, etc. Presently work with great management, but still long hours, impossible schedules....
Bottom line is, if you accept the pay, you need to do your very best. My wife works a job far under her college degree qualifications, at $8.00/hour. But she gives the proverbial 110% every day (as a teachers aid - wont go for her teaching cert, doesnt want to work as hard as they do for a small raise...). A question of CHARACTER. You get fed up, you find a way to take your skills, loyalty and professionalism ELSEWHERE. Maybe its a union thing, seniority and all that, that I just don't yet understand.
Also--you're right on with the military; I saw many officers, O-4+, who couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag. I saw many junior officers, 0-1 to O-3 who where great leaders and it was obvious their men thought so. Never ask someone to do something you won't or haven't already.
The president of Polartec, mentioned earlier, is a fine example. Insurance would not cover his employee's wages while the plant was rebuilt. He did out of his own pocket. Think hes got loyal employees?
Anyway, theres my unqualified $.02 from a non-aviation standpoint.
Fly safe (when you can fly at all...)
PA
I must agree with Timebuilder here. Respect is a two-way street, but substandard performance is never the way to "get even". I have had that problem MANY times in the business in which I work (insurance); long hours, ignorant management and supervisors, etc. Presently work with great management, but still long hours, impossible schedules....
Bottom line is, if you accept the pay, you need to do your very best. My wife works a job far under her college degree qualifications, at $8.00/hour. But she gives the proverbial 110% every day (as a teachers aid - wont go for her teaching cert, doesnt want to work as hard as they do for a small raise...). A question of CHARACTER. You get fed up, you find a way to take your skills, loyalty and professionalism ELSEWHERE. Maybe its a union thing, seniority and all that, that I just don't yet understand.
Also--you're right on with the military; I saw many officers, O-4+, who couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag. I saw many junior officers, 0-1 to O-3 who where great leaders and it was obvious their men thought so. Never ask someone to do something you won't or haven't already.
The president of Polartec, mentioned earlier, is a fine example. Insurance would not cover his employee's wages while the plant was rebuilt. He did out of his own pocket. Think hes got loyal employees?
Anyway, theres my unqualified $.02 from a non-aviation standpoint.
Fly safe (when you can fly at all...)
PA
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
I have to agree with you, too.
Even my crapiest bosses (squad sargeants, company commanders, station general managers, you name it..) always got far more from me than they ever deserved.
So, while I disagree ethically with feduppilot, I'm still wondering if what he is contemplating falls outside the work rules or contract at his carrier. Call me curious....
Even my crapiest bosses (squad sargeants, company commanders, station general managers, you name it..) always got far more from me than they ever deserved.
So, while I disagree ethically with feduppilot, I'm still wondering if what he is contemplating falls outside the work rules or contract at his carrier. Call me curious....
Britpilot
Gear Lifter
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2002
- Posts
- 849
hyper said:
You got it right, our pilots have suffered many contract violations over the last four years. Now our contract is reaching it's end our pilot groups are looking to improve work conditions. This is not only for us but for future pilots of our company. It is understood that there are a lot of unemployed pilots out there, we want them to come back or be employed to an industry leading contract. If you have not experianced a poor contract combined with the restrictions of the railway labor act and company abuse of the same, then you really cannot comment on peoples anger and frustration with their employer.
The issue is not about the professionalism of our pilot group, it is about gaining a significant improvment in our contract,
Simon Says
New Airbus Regional Jet
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2001
- Posts
- 1,036
I am tired of people think what FedUp is doing is substandard performance. He is simply doing his job. Do we all not write up aircraft at outstations now because that is suposedly "sub-standard performance". Give me a break. Once companies start treating me with respect, than I will go above and beyond my job duties. Until then they can ki$$ my a$$ and I will only do what my job requires me to do.
And about the injuction at American, correct me if I am wrong, but all of their write ups were legal. The courts said it was an illegal work action because the amount of write ups increased dramatacly, but they could not find one write up that should have not been a write up.
And about the injuction at American, correct me if I am wrong, but all of their write ups were legal. The courts said it was an illegal work action because the amount of write ups increased dramatacly, but they could not find one write up that should have not been a write up.
KlingonLRDRVR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 144
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
