AriBen Aviator 100hr multi program?

[a-v-8er]

Looking for someone who's done the 100hr multi deal in Ft. Pierce at AriBen...

I've heard a lot of unsatisfied people talking about the school in general, but also a few (mostly multi builders) who were satisfied with what they came for. I'm looking for more info though. Anyone here attend the school? The time building program? Any info appreciated!

 

[maverick_fp00]

I called them up about 2 weeks ago. Here's the deal:

You get 100 hours of multi for $6000. You have to have your multiengine commercial and instrument ratings. Also, either you can do this with a friend, or they pair you up with somebody. You each pay the $6000. 50 hours is with you in the left seat and 50 of you in the right seat logging PIC, but acting as a safety pilot. To me, that's kinda boring so that's what disinterested me.

If I'm going to buy 100 hours, I want to fly it all.

 

[Timebuilder]

You can send a PM to a woman on the board here known as "flytovegas".

She will mave MUCH to tell you.

 

[darien]

ari ben

I went to aviator and had a great time If your going for the time building portion that's the best time. You can pair up with a different pilot each time you go flyling. The only bad thing is that most time building is restricted to the evening hours. It's great though because you get to fly with a wide range of guys. I've flown with helo pilots with thousands of hours from the forces to guys with only a couple hrs in the multi. This makes it the best experience of the whole program.
Ok your not flying the plane for the whole 100 hrs but you will be co pilot/ safty pilot for the other 50. Usually one guy will be left seat to destination the other on the return trip. If your going just to build the 100 hrs you'll be thankful that your not doing 100 hrs of flying with in two weeks. This is what most guys do when they come in. You can't spend a whole month in a hotel just to build 100 hrs Well you can but then the overall cost of doing 100hrs goes up substantially
Yes the planes are not the best, but they are average for a small flight school. I know instructors there who have hundreds of hours in those planes and have had no major problems.
They are training planes so do not nap when you're the co pilot. Rember anything can go wrong with a new or old plane, but your chances are greater in older planes.
If you fly approaches up and down the coast for a few hours no matter if your the pilot or co you will sleep good that night. There's nothing boring about doing that no time to day dream when the next airport is only ten miles away from the point you go mssed.
It's a tough decission and a lot of money so how much do you need or want the time and experience If you do go for it go in with a good attitude and do not expect to be spoon feed.
great luck to ya

 

[Starsailor]

I went to Ari-Ben to build time several years ago when it wasn't quite as expensive (ah, inflation), and I can second all that darien said about the program. Being a safety pilot is good experience, assuming you are doing your job, i.e. looking for traffic, maintaining situational awareness, &c. Often the non-flying pilot would run the radios, gear and flaps, not unlike what one would do as PNF at the airlines. The airplanes are well-maintained, considering the Duchesses get a 100-hr inspection about every week, and I think they change the oil every 50. If you like them and they like you, they might just offer you a job, so that's a definite plus. All told, it was great experience, as all the testimonials on the walls there will reiterate. I'm almost certain I wouldn't be where I am today without the multi-engine hours I earned at Ari-Ben. Oh, and if Walkwitz Aviation is still in business, I would avoid them like the proverbial plague. *shiver*

Regards,
Starsailor

 

[naviator]

Expensive!!!!!

59.95/hr for twin time is expensive?!?

 

[tarp]

$6000 divided by 50 hours PIC = $120/hr.

50 hours of tuning radios and playing FO ain't flying in my logbook.

Now if the right seat is a MEI who works the left seat guy through a non-stop 50 hour marathon of engine and system failures while doing VMC drills and stalls just for fun, then maybe both pilots are getting 100 hours of experience and make the whole deal a cheap date.

Eventually, you are going to have to present yourself to an interviewer. Almost like a trial you will be asked like you are swearing on a Bible - "Do you or do you not have 250 hours experience in multi-engine airplanes?"

 

[a-v-8er]

This particular issue has little to do with the program they're offering. Logging PIC or not is up to you. Either way you'll get 100hrs of experience that can be logged legally as PIC/Safety pilot acting PIC. Now, I also know that the airlines do not look at this as PIC time unless you were the designated PIC (hence, the PIC that logs time per 61.51(e) is not PIC in their eyes unless he also is agreed upon before or during the flight to act PIC).

Now, what would you do if you had little money, needed more multi time and had the option of getting 100hrs for $6000 or buying 50hrs for $6000 since you only want to put designated PIC hours in your logbook. Remember, the whole 100hrs can be legally logged as PIC (50/50 safety pilot/flying pilot per the regs). There's plenty of time after buying the 100hrs to earn "real" PIC hours, but for a lot of us that need to get up to insurance minimums and simply can't afford to buy the hours needed at regular rental price, this is an option. Before I would apply and go to an interview I'd hopefully have more multi and be able to "delete" any PIC I have as sole manipulator to the way that the company defines PIC. But as long as the regs say I can log it and eventually meet insurance to rent multi's or instruct in them at other places, I will log it!

It's about being smart, not doing it the airline way all the time... and like I said, once I have much more multi, what's preventing me from "deleting" 50% of the PIC hours earned from the 100hrs bought. Regardless, it still counts as total time, since the safety pilot is indeed required.

This debate could go on forever. But really, do you actually learn that much more when you're at the controls? Now, I totally agree that whatever the regs say can be logged should be followed and nothing else, but the hours in your logbook doesn't tell the whole story... Experience does, and that can't be measured just by someone's hours!

 

[Flymach2]

a-v-8er said:

"Regardless, it still counts as total time, since the safety pilot is indeed required."

Are you trying to say that everyone who does this time-building puts on a view-limiting device while manipulating the controls? I have a difficult time believing that.
I know, not everyone decides to blatantly disregard the Regs, but I've known a few people for a fact that have gone through that program and never wore a pair of Foggles or a hood. I think an interviewer or two would know it as well.

Regards

 

[a-v-8er]

True, true...

But how can they prove you wrong? Personally, I wouldn't cheat my self from the hood time - but I'm sure many others do. Logging time when you're not supposed to or triple logging PIC with one guy in the backseat is one of my pet peeves in aviation. I have a very neat and correct (!) logbook and I intend to keep it that way. There's nothing in it that I in fact haven't actually done, and when the time comes for an interview I'll be happy to explain that, regardless of if they would look at this time as double logging of PIC (no one under the hood). I understand your point, but what else can you do or how else are you suggesting that the time be logged?

 

[Flymach2]

Hi...

Yes, you're right you can't be proven wrong. However, I've always believed that our profession is a noble one. Even with some of the questionable things that have happened in the recent past. Integrity and character are important qualities,(amongst others), to have when you have others' lives in your hands. There is no substitute for experience and those who choose to cheat themselves out of that experience to gain a few hours in their logbooks are not only hurting themselves, but they are ultimately going to hurt,(or kill), someone else. If you honestly do the program in the way it is intended, you will learn some valuable skills. Make certain your partner feels the same way.

As professional pilots, we are held to a high standard. We are on our honor when documenting our flight time. I think it is a sad day when we have to question whether or not someone's logbook is factual.

Regards

 

[a-v-8er]

I'll echo that! ...there's not much I can do about someone else's honesty, but try to lead by example. My logbook is as good of a document of my real experience (in hours) as it has personal value to me as far as how much I've actually flown (conditions of flight included). If I didn't value knowing how much I've done for my own reasons, than maybe I'd feel differently about entering hood time regardless if I had the "blastshield" (Starwars) on or not!
However, I do care about what entries I put in my logbook and I want it to reflect what I've actually done. Hopefully, I can convince whoever else I team up with the same if they don't seem to care about it...

 

[Starsailor]

A couple notes:

I agree with tarp that tuning radios and playing FO is not flying per se. I much preferred the flying portion of my 100 hours, of course. Three of the people that I was in the program with were MEIs at the time, and when I could get paired with them, we'd go up for about 3 hours straight of approaches, done single-engine to the missed with an intersection hold. I at least insisted that my partner watch me do approaches all day and night. Better training.

Some of the people there would just want to go fly to somewhere, like Mobile, or Savannah. I did a few of these, but coming back was requesting approaches all the way back down the coast.

A few of the people there wouldn't want to wear the hood, and I just wouldn't fly with them. I'm not trying to prove that I'm on higher moral ground or anything, but this was my money and time they were wasting, and I wasn't about to let it happen. Right next to me, no less.

Out of the aforementioned Walkwitz Aviation, I once landed at Spruce Creek and taxied up to one of the company Apaches with its beacon on. I told them so, and they just nodded and smiled. It was after I had left that day that I learned from my partner that that particular airplane had the Hobbs hooked to the master. Can you believe, paying however much an hour to not even fly? I mean why bother paying all that money when a Parker pen still costs only about 3 bucks? I shudder to think that either of those guys is employed somewhere. That incident and the numerous mechanical problems their airplanes had made me get my money back from them and spend it in Ft. Pierce instead.

Is it 100 hours in the logbook according to 14 CFR 61? Unquestionably yes. Is it worth that much in experience? I think it all depends on what you make of it. Once I had passed 2500 hours, I began to really understand what people here talk about when they say hours don't mean Jack. Experience is key. The day a pilot stops learning is the day he or she begins their final descent. I agree with a-v-8er that we must lead by example, taking action to make our chosen profession a noble one, instead of accepting mediocrity, or worse yet, outright lying about the flying you're doing.

*steps up on soapbox*

On that note (mediocrity), I've flown with guys who'll chase needles (!) down an ILS in a jet, then by some miracle of nature wrestle the airplane on the ground half a wingspan left of centerline and way over Vref, and then they continue to accept that from themselves over and over? I mean I have bad days too, but come on. We owe it to our customers to strive for perfection, even if it is unattainable, and even if it is only freight . Pride in doing a good job is part of the stuff our parents should have taught us.

*steps down*

Flymach2 says it very well:

As professional pilots, we are held to a high standard. We are on our honor when documenting our flight time. I think it is a sad day when we have to question whether or not someone's logbook is factual.

Amen, brother. It's time I go to bed. The pager is a ruthless mistress.

Regards,
Starsailor

 

[AOPAPILOT]

a-v-8er needs to check with the airlines before you make this statement.

"Now, I also know that the airlines do not look at this as PIC time unless you were the designated PIC (hence, the PIC that logs time per 61.51(e) is not PIC in their eyes unless he also is agreed upon before or during the flight to act PIC)."

If using you statement as truth, then the airlines would not accept the dual given by a CFI as counting towards their total time. I have not heard of any regional airline that will not accept PIC/safety pilot time as total time. If you have, please name them.

AOPAPILOT

 

[Timebuilder]

Perhaps what you are referring to is this: my information is that many airlines prefer to use the FAR Part 1 definition of PIC, as opposed to the Part 61 definition. Since the CFI PIC is the person ultimately responsible for the flight, that time remains intact in their eyes.

A good example of this difference of definitions is when a piston pilot transitions to a tuboprop like a C-90. Under part 61, the sole manipulator time for a multiengine pilot of twin engine aircraft (non-turbojet) under 12,500 lbs can be logged as PIC. Now unless you are permitted to sign that aircraft out for a flight by yourself instead of taking along the watchful eyes of of the pilot who is ultimately responsible for the flight, then it isn't PIC time in the view of some airline interviewers. It is a more restrictive view of PIC time than that permitted by Part 61. This could be very important at an interview that requires "PIC turbine" time.

I know a captain who occaisionally sits on the hiring board at Continental, and he told me that this view is "commonplace" at the airlines, in general.

There may be a red flag when a pilot is acting as a CFI for a flight where the other pilot is already appropriately rated in the aircraft, and it is doubtful that the other pilot needs 50 hours of "instruction" from a CFI. Now you're looking at whether or not this is a personal flag on the part of an interviewer. There is no reg that says that you can't give instruction to someone, but there may be an assumption that the "someone" in question needs instruction in order for the "two PIC" activity to take place. Remember, the airlines are free to use whatever more restrictive standards they like in the screening process.

 

[a-v-8er]

AOPAPILOT:

I didn't mean to imply that all airlines don't recognize what you've logged as PIC, but if you read Timebuilder's response - that's what I was getting at. I can't give you any names, but I was generalizing how most airlines probably view this time. I don't have any interview experience, but from friends and co-workers, this is (again) in general what I've been told.

Cya!

 

[JediNein]

AOPAPILOT,
A list of the H.R. departments that deduct "Safety pilot" time from PIC time:

Skywest
ACA
ASA
American Eagle
United
FedEx
UPS
American Airlines

Admittedly, the last four have much higher requirements than ust PIC time.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[SATCFI]

In reference to a-v-8-tr second post

"Now, I also know that the airlines do not look at this as PIC time unless you were the designated PIC (hence, the PIC that logs time per 61.51(e) is not PIC in their eyes unless he also is agreed upon before or during the flight to act PIC)."

When acting as safety pilot for someone, it MUST be agreed that you are acting as the PIC in order to legally log PIC. Otherwise, you log SIC.

Remember, when you consciously agree to act as PIC while someone else is under the hood and manipulating the controls, you buy any violations.