Are your students ready to solo?

[Tonala2k]

I just got back from a flight that left me asking this very question. A new student and I were working on the basic four when at first we seemed to be picking up some moister in the center of our windshield at the bottom. The clouds about 500 feet up must have been leaking. Not five minutes later it began to grow and run up the windshield in little golden streaks. Hmmm, oil cap maybe, though this is the first flight after maintenance.

Sure enough it was oil and we took immediate measures, now all is well. The plane's following scheduled flight was a new solo of mine. What if the seal lasted just one more flight? What if my current student had canceled? How ready would my solo student have been? Would the problem be detected in time? I know I gave training for all sorts of emergencies, but really, if push came to shove how would it have turned out? Every little thing I did between first detection and shutting down the plane I asked myself, "Would my students know to do this?"

Invulnerability. Not so much that I thought it couldn't happen to me or my students, but just simply that it wouldn't

 

[Learsforsale]

At least the student that your with got some valuable experience.

But what you mentioned was always one of my fears as I put pen to paper for a solo endorsement. I think the best thing to do is to not teach emergencies like its just another manuever. At Riddle we got too caught up in the syllabus,

"OK today we are going to do Steep turns, slow flight, stalls and engine failures"

While it is good to enforce the procedures, it is even better to break routine. In the middle of a steep turn, pull the engine. Student finally tracking the VOR needle, simulate no oil pressure. Pull the engine somewhere other then abeam the numbers.

The other thing that scares me about soloing students is that I have seen them at their absolute worst moments. There were some mistakes that if I would not have been in the right seat, they would have put the plane into the ground.

One of my private students had a tendancy to not look outside, ever. He would pick an instrument and fixate on it. I finally broke him of this habit and everything was fine. The last time we flew before his local solo, he reverted back to his fixation problem. We were on final and we were starting to get slow. I called "Airspeed" so he checks his speed and lowers the nose a little. He finally got back on airspeed, and held the same pitch while staring at the A/S indicator. I yell for him to look outside, and he finally realizes that we are on a collision course with terra firma. Yes my pulse was raised and the vein was starting to protrude from my temple but what really bothered me was thinking what might have happened if I was not in the plane.

 

[flyingnome]

Unforunatly as Flight Instructors we can only offer the best advice in the unknown before they are to venture out on their own. Are we able to cover every possible situation? No of course not, I remember on one of my first solos as a student pilot the oil door cover blew open, not the actual cap just the access door, had I gone over what to do at the time? Nope but everything ended up ok. Now after teacing for a few years and soloing way to many students *or so it feels like it* you just do everything you can to develop good habbit patterns incase of some abnormal situation. Thankfully I have been incident free but I have had some situations that scared me.

I had student go on a solo cross country back in December and while it was my bad for sending her as late in the day as I did she knew to come back as soon as she landed. Well come to find out later this student hung out on the ground for a couple hours and upon taking off realized that she had nearly 200 miles to fly back and only about an hour left of sunlight. After the sunset and I was waiting at the airport I got a phone call from my student letting me know that she had diverted to a nearby airport and decided to not fly the rest of the way back. She camped out over night and in the morning made a new flightplan back for home. I was happy with the way it turned out in the end, but needless to say the night before I was on pins and needles until I got the phone call...

 

[midlifeflyer]

realized that she had nearly 200 miles to fly back and only about an hour left of sunlight. After the sunset and I was waiting at the airport I got a phone call from my student letting me know that she had diverted to a nearby airport and decided to not fly the rest of the way back. She camped out over night and in the morning made a new flightplan back for home. I was happy with the way it turned out in the end, but needless to say the night before I was on pins and needles until I got the phone call...

Pins and needles maybe. But you obviously had a student who showed true PIC judgment.

I was lucky enough so see a student do something similar pre-solo. I was up with a student and the oil temp went sky high. Before I could say anything, my student pointed to it and said, "I think we should start heading back." I told him he was in charge and he took us home. He handled everything, including a call to the Tower to let them know that we had a potential problem.

 

[jaxpilot]

"I had student go on a solo cross country back in December and while it was my bad for sending her as late in the day as I did she knew to come back as soon as she landed. Well come to find out later this student hung out on the ground for a couple hours and upon taking off realized that she had nearly 200 miles to fly back and only about an hour left of sunlight. After the sunset and I was waiting at the airport I got a phone call from my student letting me know that she had diverted to a nearby airport and decided to not fly the rest of the way back. She camped out over night and in the morning made a new flightplan back for home. I was happy with the way it turned out in the end, but needless to say the night before I was on pins and needles until I got the phone call..."

How were you able to endorse the student for that second day of solo xc flight? Each solo endorsement is good for that day only (always exceptions though). I ask because I recently ran into this situation and am curious, thanks.

 

[flyingnome]

How were you able to endorse the student for that second day of solo xc flight? Each solo endorsement is good for that day only (always exceptions though). I ask because I recently ran into this situation and am curious, thanks.

Yeah well her logbook was endorsed that day . Just after she got back, really wasnt much else I could do unless I drove the 100 miles out to where she was to get it to her. I was very proud of her for using her good judgement and stopping when she did. Where I live it is very mountainous and there is a 13,000 foot peak just a few miles north of the airport. On a moonless night as it was it would have been very difficult for her.

 

[flyingnome]

Pins and needles maybe. But you obviously had a student who showed true PIC judgment.

I was lucky enough so see a student do something similar pre-solo. I was up with a student and the oil temp went sky high. Before I could say anything, my student pointed to it and said, "I think we should start heading back." I told him he was in charge and he took us home. He handled everything, including a call to the Tower to let them know that we had a potential problem.

It is always nice to have a student use good PIC decision making, sounds like your student did well with the task as hand as well. Always nice when things kind of work out.

 

[Tonala2k]

Flyingnome,
I'm with you on the endorsement. I would far rather explain to FSDO why my student's log book wasn't endorsed than have to explain what my student was doing flying at nigh not endorsed, or worse, what my student was doing flying into the mountain side at night not endorsed.

In a moment like this I feel it is important not only to applaud the student for making the right final choice, but also clarifying what did go wrong. That's one bit of growing up being a pilot made me do. Instead of blaming everything on circumstances, I learned to understand how I created circumstances. I don't know about others, but I do run into a lot of projection. Typically small cases, but some times it can get pretty bad.

 

[midlifeflyer]

How were you able to endorse the student for that second day of solo cross country flight? Each solo endorsement is good for that day only (always exceptions though). I ask because I recently ran into this situation and am curious, thanks.

That's a good question. The FAA definition of a "flight" is pretty loose. But I'd be concerned that it would treat a student solo cross country with an overnight as two separate flights.

This is related to a topic that's been getting some play on other forums. The topic there doesn't involve an overnight stay. Instead it involves a student who diverts to another airport during a solo cross country. There are essentially two questions. One is the technical question whether 61.93(c) requires an new endorsement. The other, more important, question is what are the standards you would apply to allowing the student to continue after the diversion.

There's been plenty of variety on the important part of the question - understandable since each student and situation is different. No consensus of opinion (and no solid guidance from the FAA) on the technical regulatory question.

Safest answer to the overnight? Find a CFI at the airport where she is, talk about the student, and hopefully, have the local CFI make a new 61.93(c) endorsement.

 

[Tonala2k]

Midlife,
Good point about having another CFI sign-off. If your student knows what they are doing it should be easy to convince another CFI to endorse the log book. they're not endorsing that the pilot can fly 61.93(c)(1), only that the planing is complete 61.93(c)(2).

 

[mcjohn]

At my wacky job the cheif pilot stopped me just as I was about to endorse a student to for long solo XC. He was going to fly the route the next day when I would be unavailable to look over his flight plan/log. This would be his 4th attempt to make the flight and not be weathered out. I had seen all the previous flight logs and they were good. So I figured, I'm comfortable endorsing him and I'll have the other flight instructor who would be available look over his flight plan before the student goes. Well, the chief said "No. Leroy (not the real instructor's name) will endorse him tommorow after he O.K.s his flight log/plan." I said, "But Leroy has never flown with this student before and I assume would not be comfortable to endorse him for a solo XC." The chief said, "Leroy will have to endorse him."
I said, "Well, shouldn't I call Leroy to she if that's O.K.?"
Chief said, "No, that won't be necessary."

Anyway, strange story I know. But if I were told that I would have to endorse another instructor's student that I knew nothing about, I'd just laugh at the chief and say "Hell no."

Well, the student showed up the next day. Leroy endorsed him and the flight went fine. Wacky freakin flight school!

Oh, in regard to failures in flight. 2 days ago I was instructing in a 2004 model 172SP and the engine began to run just a little rough about half way through the flight. No big deal. Continued the lesson with a close eye on everything. Landed and decided to check the mags again. Right side was completely dead. Almost a brand new plane and very well maintained!

Be careful out there and try to train for emergencies at least a little each lesson.

BTW, I got my tailwheel endorsement yesterday in a C170 A. If you're an instructor get your TW. You will never let a student land unaligned again and will find that you can grease every landing without much effort even in strong cross winds.

I'm off to tow banners until labor day in a week so that'll begin the new TW chapter in my life. Looking foward to it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

At my wacky job the cheif pilot stopped me just as I was about to endorse a student to for long solo XC. He was going to fly the route the next day when I would be unavailable to look over his flight plan/log. This would be his 4th attempt to make the flight and not be weathered out. I had seen all the previous flight logs and they were good. So I figured, I'm comfortable endorsing him and I'll have the other flight instructor who would be available look over his flight plan before the student goes.

It's a good call by the Chief on two counts. First, as Tonala pointed out, the 61.93(c) endorsement is only an endorsement that the planning was adequate, the weather acceptable, and that the flight complies with any limitations on the students regular solo endorsements.

Second, there already is an NTSB case out there where a CFI was violated on the issue of timely endorsements. As they usually are when they get to the NTSB, the facts are worse than your situation. They were having so much trouble with cancellations that the CFI did an endorsement covering the flight for anything covering more than a month. The student in fact did the flight 3 days after the endorsement, ran into bad weather and turned back. I can't tell from the NTSB opinion, but I don't think the student was even injured or that there was an accident.

The NTSB said that the planning endorsement requirement (I'm adding the emphasis)
==============================
means that the instructor must participate actively in the weather briefing at the time of the flight, not 3 days earlier, as he may not endorse the log until he can attest to the safety of the actual circumstances of the flight.
==============================

the case is here if you want to read it: http://www.ntsb.gov/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4253.PDF

The worst part may be that the CFI died while the case was pending and they =still= upheld the violation.

 

[nosehair]

But if I were told that I would have to endorse another instructor's student that I knew nothing about, I'd just laugh at the chief and say "Hell no."

The endorsement required by 61.93(c)(2)(ii) is a statement that an authorized instructor has reviewed the x/c planning of the student; that's all - the planning. Not the flying. The planning.
The flying part of that (or any) x/c is endorsed on the certificate and in the logbook as required by 61.93(c)(1)&(2)(1). That endorsement does have to be by the CFI who gave the x/c training required by 61.93(e).

I am thinking you misunderstand the intention and/or legal responsibility of the individual x/c endorsement. Your only responsibility is to insure the x/c planning is good. You will not be held accountable for any action of the student. The only way you would be accountable would be if the student's x/c planning (including forcast weather) is bad. That is all you are endorseing.

So, when my student gets lost, or the weather diverts him to your airport, it is in all our best interest if you would hold up to your implied agreement of being an instructor, and look over my student's x/c planning and if you are satisfied that his/her planning and the weather is good, endorse that fact in his/her logbook.

That's one of our jobs as flight instructors. As in providing a service to the aviation community. There is more to it than only teaching your students to fly.

Oh, sure, you can take that attitude; but I don't think that is what you mean, is it?

 

[flyingnome]

as stated above the only requirement for a CFI to sign off a solo xc is to review the flight planning, it is suprising that we are not required to fly with the student, but that is not the what the endorsement is about. That part should have been taken care of long before the student is ready to go cross country.

And while it would have been nice for my student to have a local CFI when she was camping out for the night that service just was not available in the po-dunk airport she had diverted to during that cross country. It was a very good learning expirience for both myself and for the student.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Your only responsibility is to insure the x/c planning is good.

I don't think that it's entirely correct that this is our =only= responsibility. The FAR is probably designed to do a good job to shield us from responsibility for piloting skill issues, but there are other things that our =professional= status can make us responsible for that are not written into the FAR.

Example: the student can barely keep his eyes open and confesses he spent the whole night awake planning the flight. The flight planning is flawless but the student lacks the good judgment to ground himself. Do you endorse the flight?

That's not meant to cause unnecessary worry. As I said, it's extreme, and unless it is something pretty obvious, the likelihood of a real problem is small.

 

[midlifeflyer]

as stated above the only requirement for a CFI to sign off a solo cross country is to review the flight planning, it is suprising that we are not required to fly with the student

It's really not that surprising. I think the regulation is dividing responsibility in a sensible way (surprise!).

Look at the long list of tasks that need to be accomplished in order to solo a student and the long lists of requirements for the general solo and solo cross country endorsements, all of which need to be accomplished by the CFI making the endorsement.

Take the example of the overnight break in the solo cross country. Without the separation of the general and specific endorsements, the remote CFI would pretty much have to give the student a checkride before sending her on her way home. Not only a pain, but it would put unnecessary bumps in what has been a pretty smooth road.

 

[flyingnome]

Example: the student can barely keep his eyes open and confesses he spent the whole night awake planning the flight. The flight planning is flawless but the student lacks the good judgment to ground himself. Do you endorse the flight?

That's not meant to cause unnecessary worry. As I said, it's extreme, and unless it is something pretty obvious, the likelihood of a real problem is small.

Yup and that all falls under the job description for the flight insctuctor as the practical psychologist... yeah FOI...

 

[flyingnome]

It's really not that surprising. I think the regulation is dividing responsibility in a sensible way (surprise!).

Look at the long list of tasks that need to be accomplished in order to solo a student and the long lists of requirements for the general solo and solo cross country endorsements, all of which need to be accomplished by the CFI making the endorsement.

Take the example of the overnight break in the solo cross country. Without the separation of the general and specific endorsements, the remote CFI would pretty much have to give the student a checkride before sending her on her way home. Not only a pain, but it would put unnecessary bumps in what has been a pretty smooth road.

yeah I can see where you are comming from and why the reg was written the way it was. in MOST cases it will work out great. Although currently there is a student that has been hanging around our FBO for some time. His last flight instructor endorsed him for his Pvt Checkride back in August then he bailed for another job. The student didnt fly for the next couple months and I came in one evening to find him doing night solo touch and go's.

after checking his logbook his endorsements had long expired and he wanted me to just re-endorse him. Well luckily our FBO required a 90 day check out flight, if you dont fly for 90 days you must be rechecked. It took about .4 of flying to realize that this student had along long way to go before the checkride let alone flying around by himself.

 

[mcjohn]

Thanks for the all the info there. It definetly clears a few things up for me.
Heres another interesting one:
I recently picked up a flight review client who hadn't flown since his PPL checkride a few years ago so I've been doing one of those long flight reviews to retrain him and resolo etc.. I recently endorsed him to solo and he did fine. A couple days later he scheduled himself to solo again but made a note that he was bringing his airline captain friend with him. Whoops can't do that you know. He didn't have the flight review signoff yet to act as PIC and could only act as PIC for 90 days IF he were alone in the plane. Well, I called him to give him the news and of course got the "But my friend is an airline captain" thing. I said, "It doesn't matter, he's not checked out to rent out planes. He can do a checkout with us or you can fly solo. Those are your only two options."

The flight review client understood and everything was fine. But, I have to make this point that a hate constantly facing these serious situations. I feel like I have to constantly stay on my toes and stay paranoid about what our client/students are doing at any given time.

I'm looking foward to towing the banners for a little while.

 

[midlifeflyer]

um, mcjohn,

what was your regulatory authority to solo him? He has a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class ratings. Either he can act as PIC or he can't. AFAIK, there is no such thing as a solo endorsement for a certificated pilot (other than one heading for a different category, class or type rating).

There probably should be one. It would give CFIs a lot more leeway in situations like the one you describe and in high performance and complex transitions. But AFAIK, your "student" was just as illegal flying solo as he was with a passenger.