Are the 135 minimums set in stone?

[Bryan D]

I was reading the General board and a guy posted the following:

Advice needed

Hello,
I am currently a flight instructor with 1250 TT and only 55 MT. Recently I've been debating whether to try to get on with a regional or go the freight route. My thinking is if I get on with a freight company such as Flight Express or Ram Air, I will have a lot more options and it will benifit me in the long run to do freight before regionals, etc...
Would you guys agree that doing freight for a while is benificial to one's career as an aspiring professional pilot? Is freight a waste of time? I'm not sure at this point whether I want to go to the airlines or corporate but I figure doing freight will provide a better chance at both opportunities.

Any thoughts?

It got me thinking, I have about the same times as this guy but, I'm 25 hrs short of the night minimums and 294 short of the X-country (point-point) minimums. The fact that I don't meet the 135 minmums has kept me from sending out my resume to any cargo operators. As a footnote, a pilot told me some cargo operators donot even look at your logbook, they take your word for your hours. Is this true?
My question is, would I stand a chance of landing a cargo job without the 135 minimums?

 

[aviatornick]

mins arent set in stone! i have a little over 1000 hours and i am about 40 short on my night and i got hired on with a 135 operator! APPLY, you never know!

 

[RideTheWind]

If you think back really hard you can probably remember stopping at an uncontrolled airport and doing a touch and go on every flight you've done, if you think hard enough you'll find you have the 500 hr XC time.

Cargo is great.

 

[RideTheWind]

mins arent set in stone! i have a little over 1000 hours and i am about 40 short on my night and i got hired on with a 135 operator! APPLY, you never know!

Are you PIC or SIC?

If you're PIC and you're flying 135 IFR you are not legal and I am willing to bet the operator you fly for is crooked as hell if he hires pilots that don't meet the 135 mins that are set in stone and probably doesn't maintain the aircraft very well, watch out for yourself.

 

[Bryan D]

If you think back really hard you can probably remember stopping at an uncontrolled airport and doing a touch and go on every flight you've done, if you think hard enough you'll find you have the 500 hr XC time.

Cargo is great.

That made me laugh...you are right but, think of the White Out!

 

[RideTheWind]

Forget the white out, use one of the free pc logbooks out there and start over.

 

[T-Gates]

I was reading the General board and a guy posted the following:


Any thoughts?

It got me thinking, I have about the same times as this guy but, I'm 25 hrs short of the night minimums and 294 short of the X-country (point-point) minimums. The fact that I don't meet the 135 minmums has kept me from sending out my resume to any cargo operators. As a footnote, a pilot told me some cargo operators donot even look at your logbook, they take your word for your hours. Is this true?
My question is, would I stand a chance of landing a cargo job without the 135 minimums?

Is this a joke???

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

Sorry to say it Bryan: but the 135 PIC minimums are set in stone.

However, you might be able to find a company that would somehow allow you to build some time with them until you met those minimums. I know a few guys who were given that offer: to get a PC (apparently this makes is legal to log time), and then to ride along (unpaid) until they had the minimums to be the PIC.

However, these were all guys who were less than a hundred hours away from whatever minimum they lacked, and for a company who really, really wanted to hire them. So the company made a way for them to meet the FAA's minimums.

But those FAA minimums are not negotiable. Any operator who would "take your word for it," would also be taking thier mechanics word for stuff, and I'm sure that they could give you thier word that the checks would clear... Be careful man, there are some shady operators out there, and they LOVE guys desparate for time.

Dan

 

[jergar999]

Nothing is set in stone. I once had a chief pilot (freight) tell me that the FARs were really just a collection of suggestions and often didn't apply to what we were doing. "You know, that's just paperwork." He also loved making fun of anyone who called "fright service" for a weather briefing. I learned a lot, both from the neat things he taught me and from the two violations he received in less than a one month period.

Honestly, my advice to you would be to do the flying, and get the time legitimately. Try not to think so much in terms of hours, but rather experience. There is a good chance you may skate by unnoticed as far as all the requirements go, but what if you don't?

Either way, good luck.

 

[barnyard]

I remember doing everything i possibly could to meet the requirements for 135; instruments students at night only, always going to other airports, etc.

nothing torqued me more than to meet guys that had padded their logbook just to get some time.

If you are considering padding your logbook, remember that this will lead your flying experience into a lie for the rest of your life. You will always have that in the back of your mind during interviews. Anyone doing logbook inspections who cares can spot a pencil-whipper in a second.

Freight isn't a waste of time, if it's good PIC time you need. Many guys only do the freight thing for a few months, and move on to the regionals as soon as they have some multi time. And there are good freight operators out there where staying for a few years is worthwhile. A couple hundred piston hours will get you though the door at a regional, but a couple thousand turbine PIC hours will open the door for some much better jobs (more than 17,000/yr).

Keep on truckin...

-barnyard

 

[FracCapt]

My question is, would I stand a chance of landing a cargo job without the 135 minimums?

You're kidding, right? The 135 minimums that are published are FAR's! They are NOT negotiable by any company. Keep in mind, these only apply to PIC's - I don't believe(though I could be wrong) there are any mins published for SIC's. You MAY be hired by a company as a VFR 135 pilot, but not IFR 135 unless you meet the mins you say you are a bit short of.

Don't Parker Pen the time.....it'll only get you in trouble in the future.

 

[philo beddoe]

PIC for IFR:

1200 TT, 500 XC, 100 Night, 75 Actual or Simulated Instrument

PIC for VFR:

500 TT, the rest I forget.

These are carved in stone.

If you are thinking about applying and figuring that they wil not check your logbook, suppose that you get hired. Suppose that you are involved in any sort of accident, incident, or something as minor as an altitude deviation or runway incursion. Suppose the FAA looks at your logbook (likely).

Your butt is toast. You are in direct violation of the FARs, and you could very well lose your tickets for misrepresenting your qualifications.

Falsifying paperwork is many times more likely to result in revocation than even crashing an airplane. Really. The whole system is built on trust. If you crash, you can be retrained. How do you retrain a liar? That is why revocation is a likely outcome.

 

[Freight Dog]

FAR 135.243(b) regulates VFR operations. You are required to have 500 hours total time, 100 hours of cross country time (point to point is OK) of which 25 hours have to be night.


FAR 135.243(c) regulates IFR operations. You are required to have at least 1200 hours total time, of which 500 hours have to be point to point cross country time (distance doesn't matter again) of which 100 hours have to be at night, and 75 have to be instrument. 50 hours has to be flown either under the hood or actual, and you can count 25 hours of FTD time towards this requirement.

 

[Bryan D]

Thanks for the replies. I have no intentions of falsifying my logbook. I'm in the process of enrolling in a 100 hr multi time building program. It's all night/cross country/multi/IFR (simulated-actual). After six months of banner towing I seriously doubt I could pass any sort of instrument check ride anyhow.

I guess what intrigues me most is someone who barely meets 135 minimums eyeballing the regionals while my target airline is a cargo job. Makes me think my goal is set too low.

 

[wingnutt]

when first reading, this does appear to be a silly question, but there is a loophole that Freight Dog caught.

if you do not meet the IFR rules (by whatever margin) you could be brought in under the VFR rules until meeting the IFR mins. the only caveat to this is that you will be trained, and the checkride will be under IFR, but the 8410 will be noted "VFR ONLY until IFR minimums met" in the remarks section. then once you do meet the IFR mins, you are good to go, with no additional checkrides necessary...unless of course, it took you 6 months to reach mins.

or they could do like Airnet did and have you ride along until you meet the IFR mins.

 

[FN FAL]

With the highly competitve nature of flying jobs right now, getting hired at 135 mins for a PIC job must be pretty tough.

I'd love to see a guy who pencil whipped 500-600 hours of fake flight time try to pull off the fallacy of imitating a frieght dog. You might squeeze past the interview, a log book scrutiny, the background check and the checkride, but when it's 6 o'clock on some blustery winter evening, pitch black and snowing to beat the bandit outside and the windows and sheet metal of the hangar are rattling in the wind and pireps are few and far between...you are the one that is going to have to get the balls to pull the plane out of the hangar and go to work...if you haven't wet your pants by then.

135 mins are there to protect the public at large, to protect commercial aviation, to protect the customers (whether they be sending peeps or boxes), to protect the plane manufacturers and anybody else that could be hurt if 135 operators could get away with putting 250 hour pilots behind the wheel of an aircraft in air carrier operations.

Do what you want to do...pencil whip, whatever...it's your life. Maybe the feds won't catch you, but you better be flying 5 knots faster than the angel of death...

 

[FracCapt]

when it's 6 o'clock on some blustery winter evening, pitch black and snowing to beat the bandit outside and the windows and sheet metal of the hangar are rattling in the wind and pireps are few and far between...you are the one that is going to have to get the balls to pull the plane out of the hangar and go to work...if you haven't wet your pants by then.

Spoken like a true freight dog. Ya know what the 2 rules are for freight dogs?

1) Never go below minimums.

2) Never go missed approach.

Been there, done that....glad to be out of the all night flying. I was pretty dang excited about 18 months ago when my DAY flight time finally exceeded my NIGHT flight time for the first time in many years.

 

[wingnutt]

Never go missed...

...im with ya on this rule, but im not so sure on that "other" one

 

[T-Gates]

You can never forget the Freight Dog "Breakfast Minimums" conversion..... And then there are CAT II Breakfast Minimums ( 2 for Tuesday at IHOP).....But I've already said too much...

 

[FracCapt]

...im with ya on this rule, but im not so sure on that "other" one

I didn't specify WHOSE minimums.....

 

[wingnutt]

I didn't specify WHOSE minimums.....

lol...touche

 

[FN FAL]

Spoken like a true freight dog. Ya know what the 2 rules are for freight dogs?

1) Never go below minimums.

2) Never go missed approach.

Been there, done that....glad to be out of the all night flying. I was pretty dang excited about 18 months ago when my DAY flight time finally exceeded my NIGHT flight time for the first time in many years.

Rodger that! Bad thing about that tub o' bolts I fly is, you better be assured landing is in your future because with icing, you may not enjoy the missed.

I hear what you're saying on the night flying...fortunately for me, I'm on the ground by 8-8:30 PM.

 

[flyinlow67]

Amen. I doubled my actual, night, and dang near everything else that can kill ya in about 2 months working freight. I love doing it, but am still not looking forward to winter in the midwest......

 

[bluelake]

when first reading, this does appear to be a silly question, but there is a loophole that Freight Dog caught.

if you do not meet the IFR rules (by whatever margin) you could be brought in under the VFR rules until meeting the IFR mins. the only caveat to this is that you will be trained, and the checkride will be under IFR, but the 8410 will be noted "VFR ONLY until IFR minimums met" in the remarks section. then once you do meet the IFR mins, you are good to go, with no additional checkrides necessary...unless of course, it took you 6 months to reach mins.

or they could do like Airnet did and have you ride along until you meet the IFR mins.

this was exactly my experience... I was hired VFR only with 850 hours or so and assigned to a route that is severely VFR last May. By the end of summer, I had my 1200 and got checked out for IFR flying as well. This worked pretty well, but there were some times I thought my limitations might impact operations, so I am surprised that my employer offered it to me.