Are people here opposed to ALPA also anarchist?

[Fly2Scuba]

I mean it makes sense, if you are opposed to one form of a basically labor government, I wonder if you don't like having a US government period. Of course, then you are still under the sole control and disgression of a dictarship (management).

Here's what I'm getting at, who is the US government? - As a democracy, it's a collection of all the citizens. Who is ALPA? - It's a collection of all the airline pilots in it's association. People spout off here anti-ALPA stuff all the time like it's some monster alien force.

Theories abound that it's just designed to protect the senior guys at the majors at the top of the chain. I won't argue that in the past decade or so, more time has been concentrated there, then what should have been devoted to the whole "regional crap" flying major airline style flying. That was a huge mistake, but so was the US government not doing enough to prevent 9/11 yet I personally don't think we should cease that. Mistakes happed, even in democracies. The age 60 rule change would benefit those senior major guys better then anyone else, yet ALPA is a collective agency is opposed.

Still overall, you don't like what they have done in a last few years, then fine. But guess what, Duane Worth is out of there, and a new leadership is in with Prater having a record of great concern for all pilots including at the "regionals" and the Vice President is Eagle.

There are good things and bad things about unions. They are subject to corruption just like any other government. Overall though, this job is to complicated and this industry is to screwed up, to not have some representation. Again, ALPA isn't some scary dictarship, it's you, me, everyone else just like your US government. Don't be a anarchist, it doesn't work well.

 

[pilotdiscretion]

Most of the pilots on this forum are young regional pilots who still haven't figured it out. It's a cultural issue of being young and dare I say, lazy.

75 years ago when ALPA was being formed there were some interesting things going on in the unions of the United States. Lots of corruption and misdealing. The founders of ALPA wanted to get away from that create a union that was above all of the misdealings. One that worked for the members. So when ALPA was formed it was decided that by charter the represented pilot would have all of the control.

Take all of the airlines represented by ALPA, all of the pilot elected officials, all of the pilot committee chairman and pilot volunteers and these people do 95% of the work for the association. The people who are not pilots hired by the association do jobs that the pilots can't do on a volunteer basis like accounting, our lawyers and professional safety engineers. 95% of the work done on behalf of the association is done by pilot volunteers.

Now take a look at how much work is done by pilot volunteers at Regional carriers vs. Majors. The pilots at Majors understand they are in control of their destiny and show up to lead. The pilots at regionals sit at home playing XBOX wondering when someone from the association is going to show up and wipe their ass for them for 1.95%. Where does your 1.95% go? It goes to a massive war chest to support you if you ever get the balls to go on strike. It ensures that you can out last management in contract negotiations.

Vote out ALPA if it makes you feel better but if you aren't doing anything to help the association now then I doubt you will do anything in your new union and it too will fail.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Take all of the airlines represented by ALPA, all of the pilot elected officials, all of the pilot committee chairman and pilot volunteers and these people do 95% of the work for the association. The people who are not pilots hired by the association do jobs that the pilots can't do on a volunteer basis like accounting, our lawyers and professional safety engineers. 95% of the work done on behalf of the association is done by pilot volunteers.

Now take a look at how much work is done by pilot volunteers at Regional carriers vs. Majors. The pilots at Majors understand they are in control of their destiny and show up to lead. The pilots at regionals sit at home playing XBOX wondering when someone from the association is going to show up and wipe their ass for them for 1.95%. Where does your 1.95% go? It goes to a massive war chest to support you if you ever get the balls to go on strike. It ensures that you can out last management in contract negotiations.

Very true, good post.

Many who are opposed to ALPA seem to be thinking that they personally can do better without the union. They are persons who's view of the World stops at their own well being.

A few opportunists can do better without working with their peers to build up the profession. But these pilots find there are not enough senior management positions for all of them to fit in to. So many end up either in middle level management sniping at their competitors for career progression, or they focus on "getting out of here" and getting airplanes from other pilot groups that will benefit their own personal career progression.

But again, there are always more opportunists than there is opportunity.

Those with a broader view of the world realize that the only way we are going to make our lot better is to work with our peers to raise the profession. Like a rising tide raises all boats, every pilot's improved contract improves this profession.

ALPA itself is guilty of engaging in opportunism and this has been the direct cause of the union's current problems. We all must remember that we are all in this together.

 

[FDJ2]

Very true, good post.

Hey, we agree on something.

 

[embdrvr]

It goes to a massive war chest to support you if you ever get the balls to go on strike.

You're assuming these kids could even find their balls.
At some of these regionals the only reps with balls are the ones working for the FA's.

 

[ex j-41]

It goes like this: Alpa comes to you and says "For a little less than 2% of your salary, we will represent you as a pilot".

Sounds good enough. But here is the tough part to swallow.

Your ALPA president is paid $500,000 a year. And this guy thinks it is acceptable to sign a contract where pilots make $20,000 a year. And the 2% you pay doesn't go to represent you it goes to represent mainline pilots.

When i drop off my dry cleaning i expect them to clean my shirts. Just like when i pay 2% i expect them to follow through with the agreement. I would pay 4% if it meant that i got a livable wage.
Pilot should fly airplanes and lawyers should negotiate contracts not the other way around.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Your ALPA president is paid $500,000 a year. And this guy thinks it is acceptable to sign a contract where pilots make $20,000 a year. And the 2% you pay doesn't go to represent you it goes to represent mainline pilots.

That again goes to back my one of my original points is that I agree that the Worthe(less for many people) era has made mistakes in not devoting enough time/resources to the regionals' issues especially when the small jets first came into play. That era is over, and now the new guys look alot more promising in taking on the concerns and issues of the so called "regional" pilots. I think the major pilot reps realized this also when they voted Prater in because what happens at one carrier large or small, effects us all in at least some small way.

 

[Tarzan]

The US government is a Constitutional Republic. Big difference between that and a democracy as ALPA is.

A republic is setup to protect the majority from itself by "Rule of Law."

A democracy comes down to mob rule. Whatever the majority wants, it gets. Sounds fine and dandy but how many of you know other pilots that are intelligent and can think on their own? Then you put them in a LEC meeting and suddenly, it's a different person.

Just as mob operates in a lynching, each person one on one would never dream of such an atrocity. Put them together and rational thought goes out the window and the person submits to the masses, happily going with the flow.

That being said, I am not for ALPA going away. In an atmosphere where companies have proven time after time that they willing to step on the blue collar guy's neck, we need some protection from that stuff. But I feel that unions today, operate as though times have not progressed. I wish I had the answer on how to fix it but I drank to many rum and cokes last night and thinking hurts.

 

[embdrvr]

Your ALPA president is paid $500,000 a year. And this guy thinks it is acceptable to sign a contract where pilots make $20,000 a year. And the 2% you pay doesn't go to represent you it goes to represent mainline pilots.

ALPA puts a lot more money into the regionals than what they get in dues.

If there weren't so many idiots suffering from SJS you would get more than 20,000 first year. Too many rich kids with a commercial cert.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ALPA puts a lot more money into the regionals than what they get in dues.

Not True. ALPA put a lot of money in settling litigation which has resulted from mainline MEC's illegal and arrogant predatory practices.

Since ALPA will never show us the books, neither of us can prove our point. I had hoped Miller v. ALPA would let us see, but ALPA settled that one when the Sup. Ct. ordered the books be provided for inspection.

 

[CFIT]

I do agree with certain items previously mentioned in that 75 years ago ALPA was definately needed, aviation as a whole was loosely governed and it helped develop a safer environment. Time progresses and the environment changes, safety becomes on everyones mind but is still expensive and ALPA contiues to help but at a very limited margin as an example of finding repeatable fault traits on the B737 resulting in a hard over. Move to today and safety is still expensive but accidents cost more, safety for the most part has an almost open checkbook. Today I feel ALPA has moved it's roots more to a businesss style venture, there are some left over pilot protection elements but they continue to be diluted over time. Eventually Loss of license will be cost prohibitive if not useless, strike supplements will be reduced. But to me the glaring conflicts of interest in representing mainline and regional and sanctioning restrictions to another's benefit cannot be overlooked.

That to me is simply wrong.

Beyond that today's management has a well developed play book and has all but nutered the collective bargining process. With mergers, bankruptcies, and alternate certificates, ALPA's time honored process of advancement is in it's dying phase.

ALPA may win a battle here and there but there is no way they can win the war. In today's day and age they are simply out gunned.

And no, I'm not new to aviation, SkyWest nearly 16 years.

 

[SkyNation]

CFIT

don't you know that belonging to ALPA is some sort of right of passage to be in the airline biz? Oh wait, I think I hear embdrvr readying his hate filled spew of a post to tell you all about it. He just can't type very fast using only one hand (the other is 'occupied' with his hard-on for ALPA)

 

[pilotdiscretion]

But to me the glaring conflicts of interest in representing mainline and regional and sanctioning restrictions to another's benefit cannot be overlooked.

I fly the CRJ for a Regional carrier too and I have come to believe that the current state of the airline industries relationship between the network carriers and their regional affiliates are an abomination to airline labor standards. Regional Jets belong at Mianline carriers flown by mainline pilots under a single unified contract that treats all of the pilots equally from the B747 -400 down to the CRJ / ERJ. We, the collective industry, let the airline CEO's wet dream genie out of the bottle years ago and I can't see how we're going to get it back in the bottle. Without scope protections at the major airlines regional airlines would have been used by airline management years ago to set the pay, retirement and quality of life standards for airline pilots back 50 years.

Imagine a pre bankruptcy Delta without any scope protections on the size of regional aircraft or fleet. There would have been nothing to stop Delta from transferring MD-80 and B737 flying to Comair and ASA and it would have been a contract massacre as the pilots tried to unsuccessfully leverage the same hourly rates as the mainline pilots. But wait! It doesn't stop there. Once regional pilots are now flying these aircraft at reduced rates here comes Delta again with their battle cry ... Our cost structure at mainline doesn't allow us to fly the B757 as profitable as the regionals and then the B767 and then the B777. Within years Delta could collapse it self under $20 billion in unpaid debt while once considered "Regional" pilots were are now flying all of Deltas aircraft with Pay, retirement and QOL significantly less than what the mainline pilots were making 10 years earlier.

I look at groups like the RJDC and see the wish fulfillment airline executives who have planned out long term transfers of assets and flying to another certificate they control so that they can default on massive amounts of debt and long fought labor contracts.

Is the current battle between the needs of the mainline pilots and regional pilots a conflict of interest or is ALPA fighting for the future of regional pilots by trying to protect higher paying, better QOL jobs that will be available in the future at the expense of lower paying jobs that can be evaporated by a sham RFP?

 

[PCL_128]

Your ALPA president is paid $500,000 a year. And this guy thinks it is acceptable to sign a contract where pilots make $20,000 a year. And the 2% you pay doesn't go to represent you it goes to represent mainline pilots.

You can all talk about Scope, DFR, and a million other issues, but if you really want to know what is wrong with ALPA, then read the above quote. This quote displays just how ill-informed the average ALPA member is. Ignorance among the membership is what is wrong with ALPA. The average line pilot doesn't have a clue how ALPA works, what the RLA is, how the grievance process works, how the National Officers are paid, how the finances work, etc... Get informed and maybe you'll be able to begin fixing the problems.

By the way, Captain Woerth makes about $325,000 and the regionals receive far more money from ALPA than they pay in with their dues. Ask your MEC Sec-Treasurer. I'm sure he'd be happy to show you. The more you know....

 

[FDJ2]

At some of these regionals the only reps with balls are the ones working for the FA's.

It's not about "balls" it's about unity and resolve. You display it by working together with your leadership. Quite frankly some of the "demonstrations" of unity and resolve by regionals has been lacking when the Reps can't get the rank and file to show up in large numbers to picket. The rank and file need to get off their duff and rally behind their elected leadership.

 

[JPAustin]

Rome fell too and it was a representative democracy (Republic). It got too big and fat and taxed the crap out of its citizens and got into the business of making unilateral decisions without proper representation (read, taxation without representation).

Sound like ALPA? It does to me. But I pay my dues so I'm allowed to speak out against my representative government which I disagree with on nearly 90% of issues save the safety issues. ALPA cannot represent fairly the breadth of pilot groups it represents, yet, it flat taxes all of them only to give most of the crown to the kings and princes (i.e. the ruling class) and privileged upperclass of the system (i.e. majors).

Its only a matter of time.... and Rome will fall again.

 

[Edct]

I mean it makes sense, if you are opposed to one form of a basically labor government, I wonder if you don't like having a US government period. Of course, then you are still under the sole control and disgression of a dictarship (management).

Here's what I'm getting at, who is the US government? - As a democracy, it's a collection of all the citizens. Who is ALPA? - It's a collection of all the airline pilots in it's association. People spout off here anti-ALPA stuff all the time like it's some monster alien force.

Anarchy, no. Don't quite follow your reasoning there. What you don't see on Flightinfo since it's a vastly pro-union audience is that there are many of us who are opposed to unions of any kind. We believe in free-market capitalism. Not socialism where everyone is made to feel equal when they aren't and given pay raises and promotions based solely on longevity. I would much rather earn my job and its benefits than be handed what my "peer group" has demanded from its employer. I will never be part of the mentality that says to my company "I know you hired me with certain pay and benefits known to me in advance, but that's not working for me anymore, so either give me more or I'll shut this place down". You talk about selfishness? That's the best example of "screw everyone else but me" I've ever seen.

 

[ex j-41]

You can all talk about Scope, DFR, and a million other issues, but if you really want to know what is wrong with ALPA, then read the above quote. This quote displays just how ill-informed the average ALPA member is. Ignorance among the membership is what is wrong with ALPA. The average line pilot doesn't have a clue how ALPA works, what the RLA is, how the grievance process works, how the National Officers are paid, how the finances work, etc... Get informed and maybe you'll be able to begin fixing the problems.

By the way, Captain Woerth makes about $325,000 and the regionals receive far more money from ALPA than they pay in with their dues. Ask your MEC Sec-Treasurer. I'm sure he'd be happy to show you. The more you know....

I know quite well the purpose of ALPA and its history. I have seen the pay scale for ALPA employees and this was before they striked. Now next year we will see how much they stole from ALPA members.
What ALPA did to Regional pilots is criminal. When US Air Management stole peoples retirement, that was crimminal. No different then Enron. And look we have a ALPA president that was in no way worth $500,000. I pay my dues and expect something in return. Because i expect results doesn't mean i don't support the Union.

 

[embdrvr]

CFIT

don't you know that belonging to ALPA is some sort of right of passage to be in the airline biz? Oh wait, I think I hear embdrvr readying his hate filled spew of a post to tell you all about it. He just can't type very fast using only one hand (the other is 'occupied' with his hard-on for ALPA)

SkyNutsack,

Don't even try to put yourself in the same camp as CFIT. Although I disagree with CFIT he is able to at least make an intelligent argument for his position. He's also got more time holding short of the runway than you have total time. He's a fellow professional that I don't agree with but have respect for.

Most notably he's not a whiny POS that can only think of himself. You've demonstrated quite eloquently on these forums that the only person that matters is you and the rest of your coworkers and the industry for that matter can go to hell.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Anarchy, no. Don't quite follow your reasoning there. What you don't see on Flightinfo since it's a vastly pro-union audience is that there are many of us who are opposed to unions of any kind. We believe in free-market capitalism. Not socialism where everyone is made to feel equal when they aren't and given pay raises and promotions based solely on longevity. I would much rather earn my job and its benefits than be handed what my "peer group" has demanded from its employer. I will never be part of the mentality that says to my company "I know you hired me with certain pay and benefits known to me in advance, but that's not working for me anymore, so either give me more or I'll shut this place down". You talk about selfishness? That's the best example of "screw everyone else but me" I've ever seen.

Unless you have the political skill set to remain one the good ol boys in the chief pilots mind your appointment to Capt and the ability to remain will be based on his ever shifting policies.

"I know you hired me with certain pay and benefits known to me in advance, but that's not working for me anymore, so either give me more or I'll shut this place down".

What kind of statement is this? So, I thought management said this for the past five years? They said to the all labor groups...

"We know we hired you with certain pay and benefits known to us in advance, but that's not working for us anymore, so either give us more or we'll shut this place down".

Very disapointed in your post. You are the crack that management will divide us by....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I know quite well the purpose of ALPA and its history. I have seen the pay scale for ALPA employees and this was before they striked. Now next year we will see how much they stole from ALPA members.
What ALPA did to Regional pilots is criminal. When US Air Management stole peoples retirement, that was crimminal. No different then Enron. And look we have a ALPA president that was in no way worth $500,000. I pay my dues and expect something in return. Because i expect results doesn't mean i don't support the Union.

Got anything more besides an opinion? Fact? References?

 

[ex j-41]

Got anything more besides an opinion? Fact? References?

Here is my Opinion...Just can't understand how and why someone believes they deserve $500,000 when the people they represent can't by a Christmas Turkey. Or pay the mortgage, car payment etc...Now flying a 33 million dollar jet getting paid chicken scratch is disgusting. I pay dues so ALPA will represent me, and my pilot group. Not mainline.



http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=235072


NameTitleSalaryBenefits& OtherTotalCompensation
Duane Woerth President $ 351,186 $ 136,744 $ 487,930

 

[embdrvr]

Why do you guys keep talking about DW's pay? The guy gets a salary of 351K plus an expense account and is the president of a union responsible for representing over 60,000 pilots. If he was a line pilot he'd probably be pulling in just under 200K. An airline CEO makes a hell of a lot more money. We all like to talk about pay commensurate with responsibilities. We do our 4 day trip and go home. Being president of a large union probably means a bit more work than flying the line and you probably don't get to turn off the cell phone for 3 days if you feel like.
Should the president of ALPA work for $35K a year because we have a seemingly endless supply of kids with SJS willing to work for peanuts?
I'm glad to see DW being replaced with Prater but I don't have any heartburn over what he was getting paid. It's not a job I'd want.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here is my Opinion...Just can't understand how and why someone believes they deserve $500,000 when the people they represent can't by a Christmas Turkey. Or pay the mortgage, car payment etc...Now flying a 33 million dollar jet getting paid chicken scratch is disgusting. I pay dues so ALPA will represent me, and my pilot group. Not mainline.



http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=235072


NameTitleSalaryBenefits& OtherTotalCompensation
Duane Woerth President $ 351,186 $ 136,744 $ 487,930

Can you explain 'expenses reported as income'? If you need an explaination I'll be happy to do so.....

Do you realize that union facts.com is a website designed to by anti union organizations. The info is slighted against unions. Can you tell us about Richard Berman who runs unionfacts.com? His history against Mothers Against Drunk Driving?

This website has been discussed throughly on FI. Obviously it fuels what you want to believe....

Also on unionfacts.com it shows the paycuts that DW has taken. Care to post those?

Center for Union Facts (unionfacts.com),
an organization that refuses to reveal
its sponsors. Check out both their web
site and their ads, but do so with a criti-
cal eye. I think you’ll agree that these
ads aim to undermine your way of life
and eliminate your ability to provide
for yourself and your family

 

[JPAustin]

Unionism has done wonderful things for this countrythe venerable dues paying members they represent. HOWEVER, like most movements in this country, i.e. civil rights, womens liberation, environmentalism, etc, unionism has done its job and for the most part run its course and the pendulum is now going too far to the extremes. In return, the true goal is lost (save the safety movement for ALPA), money is frivolously wasted, and unfair exertions are placed on other groups who now feel forced to swing the pendulum back towards the middle to balance things out.

Unionism as it existed 25 years ago is NOT the proper format for today. Unionism needs to get with the times if it wants to survive in a capitalistic society. Unionism has to be as quick-footed and dynamic as the businesses and corporations it is in contention with. Honestly, what major victories (unions for government workers NOT included here) have been wrought by unions in the past 20 years? Battle after battle is lost because unionism contends with archaic tactics that are countered by new and innovative corporate defenses. Corporations HAVE to be quick-footed to survive, hence no union could possibly have the wherewithal to effectively fight back. Sure, a few battles may be won here and there, but do they have any impact? Is fight ever won? NO. Unionism HAS to adapt or die, and rapidly declining membership is the proof.

Uh oh.... he MUST be a Republican! BAD REPUBLICAN, get off of the boards! You are EVIL!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

JP Austin-

HOW do unions need to change. How do they need to be "quick footed?"

I'm not saying they don't. I agree on adapt or die. Your post recognizes the problem but offers no solutions....

 

[JPAustin]

Sorry Rez, but it is not my solution to find. I can offer suggestions like running ALPA like a competitive business or reducing its management structure, but those are done in time, not overnight. ALPA may have a monopoly over pilot membership, but monopolistic entities never thrive nor do they survive. They get fat, they get lazy, they get stupid. That is why government controlled airlines never worked and they lose their governments TONS of money (look to Deregulation for that one). Look at Airbus as well, a multi-government consortium in a near monopolistic marketplace, or NASA, which holds a true monopoly over US space exploration and is funded nearly entirely by government!

To make light of the subject, I liken it to how some people act in a marriage: They have a monopoly over love and comfort and safety, so there is no need to attract other mates anymore, no drive to compete, hence they get big, fat and lazy.

Sorry Rez, no more solutions there huh?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So we should abolish marriage?

 

[SkyNation]

SkyNutsack,

Don't even try to put yourself in the same camp as CFIT. Although I disagree with CFIT he is able to at least make an intelligent argument for his position. He's also got more time holding short of the runway than you have total time. He's a fellow professional that I don't agree with but have respect for.

Most notably he's not a whiny POS that can only think of himself. You've demonstrated quite eloquently on these forums that the only person that matters is you and the rest of your coworkers and the industry for that matter can go to hell.

Dude,

you attacked me, not the other way around. I'm not sure why you think you know so much about me? I'm a former ALPA member. how would you know how much time I have? the 12:34 in my profile? guess you missed the joke. continue to be filled with angry jealousy because I work for SkyWest, but beyond that, I don't see where I and CFIT have disagreed or posted anything contrary to one another, either in tone or substance.

hate on, brother

 

[JPAustin]

So we should abolish marriage?

Nah, just abolish stupid people from marrying each other, lest they end up on Springer, or, for the more 'fisticated ones, Maury.