Are CFI Signatures Required for Logging Dual Time?

[nosehair]

so what if that training is in the form of a checkout in the flight school's new 172? or did we cover this already...

-mini

As far as the FAA is concerned, you don't need no stinkin' dual to check out in a new 172.

Insurance? That's a different story - you better have the required check-out time with instructor's signature.

This is another example of having to INTERPRET regulations. One regulation says you don't need to log anything except what is required for certification or recency, another says an instructor has to sign everything.

Kind of like the opposing PIC regulations. One says the pilot responsible for the flight is PIC, yet another reg says he can't log it in some situations, and yet another pilot flying who is not responsible for the flight can log PIC. Crazy, huh?

Same with this reg. So we have to make up our own interpretation until some FAA Legal Authority makes a ruling.

My take is that - if an instructor provides dual training for a cert/rating, or Flight Review, or other currency requirement, then he must sign.

But if it is not an FAA required dual training flight, then the person recieving the training need not log it, and therefore, the instructor need not sign it.

How can he sign it if the student elects to not log it?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I agree with you, nosehair.

FWIW, I don't agree that a CFI has to sign off on every flight that involves some kind of instruction. I read 61.189 as meaning that a CFI must endorse the logbook for any training that is to "count" for something. I know that's not what it =says=, but I'm pretty sure that is what it =means= .

Can't find it now, but one day when I was bored I was reading through FAA legal opinions and came across one that did not require a CFI to sign every training flight. It's hard copy, not on a CD. Next time in the law library I'll recheck on it.

 

[minitour]

How can he sign it if the student elects to not log it?

That's exactly what I was getting at...

-mini

 

[avbug]

If there is a legal interpretation to the contrary, I'd certainly like to see it. However, the regulation provides NO relief for the requirement that a flight instructor sign the logbook for all instruction given.

That the instructional flight is required by the FAA, insurance, friends, family, romans, countrymen, the student him or herself, an act of congress, the whim of a passing gentleman, or the ides of march, is irrelevant. The fact that the instruction takes place is quite relevant.

The student is not required by regulation to log any time not used toward recency of experience or a certificate or rating...but the instructor most certainly is. The instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom he provides instruction, period.

The instructor must also maintain a record of that instruction for three years. You'll note that the regulation makes no relief statement stipulating that this only applies to instruction given for a certificate or rating, or for the purposes of recency of experience. Not at al. The regulation provides the requirement in the imperative; the instructor MUST sign the logbook of each person to whom he provides flight or ground instruction. Even flight never takes place and it's only a ground session, the instructor must sign the student's logbook. This is not optional.

You may find a location where a "checkout" may be handled by a private pilot or the holder of a commercial certificate, but doubtful. The company is going to require that the checkout be conducted by the holder of a flight instructor certificate. A flight instructor during any given instructional flight may be talking, observing, evaluating, demonstrating, explaining, directing, aiding, assisting, etc...but is still acting in the capacity of a flight instructor. In this case, the purpose of the flight is for a flight instructor to provide a checkout, and additional instruction for the purpose of obaining local flying privileges in a new aircraft (eg, Cessna 150 to Cessna 172, etc).

The flight instructor MUST sign the student's logbook. TSA has taken a renewed interest in any flight instruction given, and records should be detailed and exact.

If you believe that no records should be kept of any instruction that's not specific to a certificate or rating, then perhaps those wishing to only receive instruction in how to take off, but not land, should go un noticed, have no records kept, and be exempt from any of the new screening requirements? After all, that's not toward a certificate or rating, either.

The instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom he provides instruction, regardless of the intended use or benifit of that instruction.

Weather the instruction is used toward a certificate or rating is entirely irrelevant to the issue of weather the signature is required. The student is not required to log it, but the instructor is required to sign the student's logbook all the same, and maintain exacting records for himself or herself for a period of three years.

As an aside, a simple checkout I did as a courtesy many years ago for a small flying club turned into a legal nightmare...several years later. The individual to whom I provided the checkout destroyed an airplane of the same type in which the checkout had been conducted. He attempted to land at a remote, unattended narrow airstrip in winds beyond his capability in a rental, and lost control. He had sought no additional training, and my signature was the last in his logbook.

My very detailed records of the event prevented me from becoming entangled in what followed, as I was able to clearly demonstrate my involvement and the extent of it. The signature is required to be in the book. One might argue that had I not signed his book, there would have existed no issue for me...but that's quite irrelevant, as I was required to sign it then, just as I would be now. What protected me were the detailed and exacting records I kept then, and keep now. Sign the book, and document everything.

 

[nosehair]

The instructor must also maintain a record of that instruction for three years.

The student is not required to log it, but the instructor is required to sign the student's logbook all the same, and maintain exacting records for himself or herself for a period of three years.

Not exactly. A record of endorsements is required to be kept for three years, but not instruction.

61.189(b) "A flight instructor must maintain a record in a logbook or a seperate document that contains the following:
(1) The name of each person whose logbook or student pilot certificate that instructor has endorsed for solo flight privileges, and the date of the endorsement; and
(2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test, the date, and the results."

Nothing there about keeping a record of training flights.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If there is a legal interpretation to the contrary, I'd certainly like to see it. However, the regulation provides NO relief for the requirement that a flight instructor sign the logbook for all instruction given.

So, grab that pilot, body slam him into the ground, tie him up and lock him in the trunk until he presents his logbook for your signature.

It's the only way to be legal.

 

[avbug]

Cute and ridiculous, but pointless and nonsensical. A condition of providing the instruction is that the student provide his or her logbook.


No body slamming required.

Do you really believe it's so difficult to meet the requirements of the regulation?

Is there anybody out there stupid enough NOT to keep full records of all instruction provided?

 

[nosehair]

Is there anybody out there stupid enough NOT to keep full records of all instruction provided?

Yes, I am.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Cute and ridiculous, but pointless and nonsensical. A condition of providing the instruction is that the student provide his or her logbook.

Sorry. But, living in Denver, I get the odd pilot who wants to do a mountain flight while on vacation and, being wise, doesn't drag his or her logbook on ski vacations. Perhaps you are unwilling to accommodate them, but I'm not.

Sorry, but your reading of the regulation is incorrect.

 

[jtidmore]

midlifeflyer,

So, if you have someone who doesn't have his/her logbook with them because they are on vacation and you give them training. What would be your recommendation to them on logging the time? Do you say they should log it as dual?

Thanks.