Approach Question

[great cornholio]

Back in my CFII days I used to know this crap but since I've been away from that scene for 3 years I'm kinda rusty. Me and a buddy were having a discussion about this cause hes getting ready for an interview so we looked at some Jepp Plates. The 2 we looked at were the PIA ILS 4 and the PIA ILS 13. The question is for the ILS 4. The PIA vor is off the airport. Question is you are over the PIA vor and non-radar cleared for the approach how you would shoot the approach. PIA vor to KHUBS (IAF) has a thin gray line with the 167 Radial. From what I remember this just shows how to ID the KHUBS and is not a Feeder Route (its not dark and has no distance or altitude) so you can not fly that radial to get to KHUBS. My buddy says different he says you can fly that radial and then enter the hold in lieu of a Procedure Turn at KHUBS. If it makes a difference PIA vor is the hold point for the Missed. Also notes at top of plate say "ADF, DME, or RADAR required"

The ILS 13 also has PIA vor in it and it has a feeder route to ADLER (IAF). This feeder route is dark black and has 345 radial 2.8 for the distance and 2500 for the Altitude. I say this is legal to shoot the appraoch from the vor this time cause its a feeder route.

Anyways I guess long story short is how would you shoot the 1st appraoch from over the vor if the only thing with that vor is the thin gray line with radial only no distance no altitude and the holding pattern that defines the hold for the missed. I say you can't do it.

 

[minitour]

I'd say PIA to KHUBS via the PIA R-167.

I'd probably expect a "maintain (8,000 - something!) until established on a published portion of the approach, cleared ILS 4"

so...I'd say stay at your last assigned altitude, go to Khubs, descend in the "hold" until 2,600 then proceed inbound and report all that stuff (as required) to (Approach, Center, whoever...)

That's my take on it...

 

[midlifeflyer]

Great approach to study. You are correct coprnholio. That line emanating from the VOR just tell you that you can identify the IAF by using a combination of the VOR, DME, and the ADF. It's =not= a feeder route.

One possibility is mini's - at the very least ATC would give you an instruction to get to the FAF, something like "proceed direct KHUBS..."

Another is that the PIA R167 is also a victor airway (I don't have the enroute chart so I don't know whether that's true), in which case "cleared for the approach" would have you at the last assigned altitude and tracking the airway until you identified KHUBS - the equivalent of what your buddy said..


You would not get

 

[mike1mc]

IFirst off ya you wouldn't be shooting this approach without radar as per the notes.

Read the notes closer... "ADF, DME, or RADAR required" Most approaches that have notes like "RADAR REQUIRED" will not have a procedure turn becuse you will always be given radar vectors to the IAF.

Heres a link to the approach plate

 

[great cornholio]

Thanks for all of the help guys. I looked at an enroute chart and sure enough that radial is part of a victor airway. KHUBS is even on the chart cause the loc is used to ID the intersection. Anyways without knowing that the radial was part of the airway and all you had was the approach plate. Then I would say that with the PIA radar out then you could shoot the approach but you couldnt start the approach from over the VOR. Anyways thats still my take on it. Of course in real life you could shoot the approach becasue its part of an airway and that is of course legal to fly on. Well thanks again guys. Once again flightinfo comes thru. I swear you can ask anything on here.

 

[CRJ Driver]

Thanks for all of the help guys. I looked at an enroute chart and sure enough that radial is part of a victor airway. KHUBS is even on the chart cause the loc is used to ID the intersection. Anyways without knowing that the radial was part of the airway and all you had was the approach plate. Then I would say that with the PIA radar out then you could shoot the approach but you couldnt start the approach from over the VOR. Anyways thats still my take on it. Of course in real life you could shoot the approach becasue its part of an airway and that is of course legal to fly on. Well thanks again guys. Once again flightinfo comes thru. I swear you can ask anything on here.

But you dont know what ATC's lowest min altitude is without radar, it might be higher than g/s intercept altitude, in that case you cant do the approach.

 

[hawg2hawk]

I just earned my military instrument rating, which makes #3 for me (including my CFII etc) so this stuff is pretty fresh... and I'm standing duty right now at 1am so I went in the pubs room to grab the plates and a FIH to look up the answers for you and here's what I get...



First off ya you wouldn't be shooting this approach without radar as per the notes. However if you do find yourself in this situation... the most appropriate thing to do IMO would be to fly the 167 to KHUBS at the MSA of 2800 (or last expected, assinged, etc.)... hit the fix and make a tear drop entry, join the inbound, when established either decend to 2600 and intercept the GS or just maintain 2800 (what I would do) and intercept the GS from up there... it's an at or above altitude, not a hard alt. You're correct that the R-167 is not a feeder route, but who cares? You can use it to navigate to, and ID the IAF.

Maybe on #4 you'll read them notes a little closer?

 

[Singlecoil]

But you dont know what ATC's lowest min altitude is without radar, it might be higher than g/s intercept altitude, in that case you cant do the approach.

WTF? Over... If it ain't radar required, then published altitudes are good without radar. Anyone have a link to be able to view these charts?

 

[CRJ Driver]

WTF? Over... If it ain't radar required, then published altitudes are good without radar. Anyone have a link to be able to view these charts?

Dumba$$ how are you going to desend for the approach if ATC cant get you to the same altitude to start the ILS because ATC RADAR is OUT....let me guess you would do it anyway......read the plate RADAR REQUIRED............bunghole.....

 

[minitour]

Dumba$$ how are you going to desend for the approach if ATC cant get you to the same altitude to start the ILS because ATC RADAR is OUT....let me guess you would do it anyway......read the plate RADAR REQUIRED............bunghole.....

uhhh...hey "bunghole"...

If you've got ADF or DME, you don't need RADAR...it's an EITHER/OR thing...

They could very easily clear you for the approach from a whole bunch of altitudes.

"Cleared present position direct KHUBS, Maintain 15,000 until established on a published portion of the approach, cleared ILS 4, report arriaving at and leaving KHUBS."

What's wrong with that clearance? They cleared you for the approach without radar (necessarily), gave you an altitude, and an approach clearance...told you where they want reports....seems pretty simple to me.

Does anyone know why the ADF, DME or RADAR requirements are there? You can identify the appropriate intersections with cross-radials from the VOR and the miss is right at the VOR, so I'd think if you could shoot the approach (have an OBS), you could fly the approach without too much trouble. I do realize that KHUBS is a DME fix too and can also be identified on RADAR plus using the bearing to the LOM station, but...I can't see why you would need the ADF, DME, or RADAR...maybe I'm missing something easy.

-mini

 

[JB74]

Anyone have a link to be able to view these charts?

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00597I4.PDF

 

[midlifeflyer]

Anyways without knowing that the radial was part of the airway and all you had was the approach plate.

I'm going to exhibit some lack of knowledge about the industry. Do they really give you scenarios like:

"Here's an approach plate. Someone beamed you and you airplane over to this spot and the =only= chart you have available is the approach plate. The only thing you know is that you are over the VOR, but you have no idea how you got there. ATC says 'cleared for the approach' with no other instructions. Sorry, no situational awareness allowed!"

 

[Singlecoil]

Dumba$$ how are you going to desend for the approach if ATC cant get you to the same altitude to start the ILS because ATC RADAR is OUT....let me guess you would do it anyway......read the plate RADAR REQUIRED............bunghole.....

You know, that thingy in front of you, whaddya call it....you know the "push forward houses get smaller" thing. That would be how I would descend. I almost fell for your flamebait. I can't imagine anyone with your stated experience wouldn't know how to read a basic approach plate.

 

[minitour]

You know, that thingy in front of you, whaddya call it....you know the "push forward houses get smaller" thing.

on mine it's a "push forward houses get bigger" thing...

-mini

 

[Singlecoil]

Doh! I can't even slam somebody correctly.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Does anyone know why the ADF, DME or RADAR requirements are there? You can identify the appropriate intersections with cross-radials from the VOR and the miss is right at the VOR, so I'd think if you could shoot the approach (have an OBS), you could fly the approach without too much trouble. I do realize that KHUBS is a DME fix too and can also be identified on RADAR plus using the bearing to the LOM station, but...I can't see why you would need the ADF, DME, or RADAR...maybe I'm missing something easy.

-mini

Most likely, again only an noneducated guess, is that KHUBs is both a radar and dme fix, so imagine all hell breaking loose and both the DME on the LOC is OTS and the radar boys are on a union mandated break, then the only way to ID KHUBs is with an ADF bearing, since your #1 nav will be tuned to the LOC.

I know, I know your saying what if I have 2 VOR receivers, thats fine but you are only REQUIRED to have one so the FAA built the approach giving those with limited cockpit equipement the ability to do the approach in the event of above said disaster. So, if you have two VORs and no ADF, the DME is borked and Radar is out to lunch, technically you cannot do the approach.

Again, been so long since I have taught this stuff I could be totally wrong.

 

[minitour]

Doh! I can't even slam somebody correctly.

it happens

 

[great cornholio]

I'm going to exhibit some lack of knowledge about the industry. Do they really give you scenarios like:

"Here's an approach plate. Someone beamed you and you airplane over to this spot and the =only= chart you have available is the approach plate. The only thing you know is that you are over the VOR, but you have no idea how you got there. ATC says 'cleared for the approach' with no other instructions. Sorry, no situational awareness allowed!"

Yup thats how it was done. Messed up huh?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yup thats how it was done. Messed up huh?

Ever find out what =they= wanted for an answer?

 

[nosehair]

Does anyone know why the ADF, DME or RADAR requirements are there? You can identify the appropriate intersections with cross-radials from the VOR and the miss is right at the VOR, so I'd think if you could shoot the approach (have an OBS), you could fly the approach without too much trouble. I do realize that KHUBS is a DME fix too and can also be identified on RADAR plus using the bearing to the LOM station, but...I can't see why you would need the ADF, DME, or RADAR...maybe I'm missing something easy.

-mini

To avoid cross-tuning on the ILS final at the IAF. You can ID the IAF with an ADF bearing or ILS-DME (7). Practicaly speaking, you could cross-tune your single vhf-nav reciever from LOC to VOR and ID this IAF, but for approach plate approval, a second nav radio signal (or radar) must meet that requirement. It's for the wussies

 

[great cornholio]

Ever find out what =they= wanted for an answer?

Nope but if it helps my buddy said that he could shoot the approach by flying the radial then enter a hold in lieu of a PT. The intereview guy didnt say much just that he would do the samething (maybe to see if my buddy would change his mind) anyways a few days later my buddy got the thanks but no thanks letter in the mail. So who knows what answer they want.