Approach Minimums

[bbwest]

Some intersting discussions about this subject at my place lately. I'd love to hear thoughts from others

On a recent flight w/ my boss, wx was 200/1. Only a non precis avail and mins were 400/1. He says vis is the only min that matters and that we can shoot the approach to 400 to see if we break out. I had always been of the mindset that if the wx reported is below mins I couldnt begin the approach.....

Digging into the FARs but meanwhile.....

What does your company allow?

 

[Iceman540]

I thought you could only do that if under part 91...?

 

[LJ45]

your boss is right.

 

[pilot error]

check your ops manual. normally, vis is controlling.

 

[LongBoarder]

Visibility is normally the only controlling factor, unless you are 135/125/121 and on High Mins, or are operating in a foreign country where the Ceiling then(not always, but will be notated on the chart) becomes controlling.

LB

 

[CA1900]

Company rules vary. The FARs are fairly clear on this. Assuming a Part 91 flight, you can begin the approach if it's 0/0, right down to the MDA. (Part 135 has tighter rules, obviously.) You just can't descend below the MDA unless you have the visibility to do so:
§ 91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR.

...
(c) Operation below DA/ DH or MDA. Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, where a DA/DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, below the authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DA/DH unless—
...
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach being used; and


That's it. There's nothing about a ceiling requirement. The MDA is the lowest you may fly until you have the visual references listed in 91.175. The ceiling will give you a good indication that you're not likely to see the runway, but it does not prevent you from attempting the approach.

 

[BushwickBill]

I think an exception may be if it is a circling approach then the ceiling is a requirement?

Then again I haven't put down the crack pipe for a while....

 

[Iflewjetz]

Vis. is the controlling factor. I am corporate now, but when I was at the airlines, we just had to have the vis by OM, or FAF, so most tower guys knew this, so they didnt tell the vis if we were close...as long as we had it prior.

 

[cunchos]

part 121 vis is controlling. ( flight vis once you have pass the marker but reported vis before you start the app) I know just the right amount of rope to hang yourself if something goes wrong. Thanks faa

 

[GravityHater]

if the wx reported is below mins I couldnt begin the approach.....

all the below is pt 91
-the first number on the mins section of an non-precision approach is the mda, on a precision app, the dh. It is not a weather minimum that tells you if you can land or not, or even if you can attempt the approach. (Although it will give you a clue on what to expect. If the wx is reported below 300 and the mda is 800 you are probably sol.)

-the controlling item on continuing an approach, or taking the approach to a landing, is vis. The second number on the minimums section of an IAP.

But it is not the only thing.
In order to leave MDA/DH you have to have
-the vis AND
-be continuously in a PTL, AND
-have one of the 10 items in sight
§ 91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.6.42&idno=14

In Pt 91 you may begin an approach that you full well there is no way in h you can complete. It can be a pea soup fog from an ant's knee to 10K and you can 'give er a try' ifn you want.

All the above is pt91


Is how I learned it; corrections welcomed.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Some intersting discussions about this subject at my place lately. I'd love to hear thoughts from others

On a recent flight w/ my boss, wx was 200/1. Only a non precis avail and mins were 400/1. He says vis is the only min that matters and that we can shoot the approach to 400 to see if we break out. I had always been of the mindset that if the wx reported is below mins I couldnt begin the approach.....

Digging into the FARs but meanwhile.....

What does your company allow?

You have a 757 Type Rating and you don't know visibility is controlling?

 

[patq1]

As previously pointed out, under 135/121, you need only have the visibility reported. Under pt 91 you can proceed with approach with neither. That being said, I won't bother with the approach unless I have a reasonable expectation of being able to land. In the situation described I would not make the approach. I would either hold if I thought it was going to change or I would go elsewhere. That is just my personal policy. I did my share of low approaches when I was flying cargo. I have gotten older and more conservative.

 

[cjdriver]

You have a 757 Type Rating and you don't know visibility is controlling?

Yeah, this is BS...

 

[LJ45]

remember folks broken is a ceiling, and you can have a big hole in the ceiling between you and the runway. that is why we go by visibility.

 

[Bronco Buster]

Your military background is causing the confusion. In the Air Force we were controlled by both the ceiling and visibility. In the civilian world basically vis is all that counts though that ceiling height gives you a clue as to your odds of actually seeing the approach lights or runway environment when you hit mins.

 

[airgator]

Exactly what Bronco says. Strictly Civ guys don't understand the whole military ceiling and vis way were were trained. I was confused at first also when I made the switch to 121.

 

[semperfido]

P91 ops, you are always allowed(unless you have a more restrictive Company policy) to shoot the approach to minimums. If you see it, land. That's it.

 

[jet2work]

On the right side of this page is an advertisement for a book called "Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot."

It is written by a pilot, and it covers just about every topic in the appropriate detail, and gives you great cross reference. It was not written by a lawyer. Really, this book brings together the FARS and AIM and explains the differences between 91, 121, and 135.

The book is under $60.00 and is money well spent. I don't know if the book has been revised lately or not, but even so, it clearly explains all of the areas where pilots continually confuse themselves (or rather, let themselves be confused by the FAA's lawyers).

If you don't see the link, here is a link to one of the chapters to give you a feel for the book.

http://www.aviation-press.com/images/chapter7.pdf

 

[G4G5]

Your boss is correct unless u r in the UK

 

[CA1900]

Please add some space in your A/C flown list, G4G5. You're messing up the formatting for the whole page. Thanks.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Please add some space in your A/C flown list, G4G5. You're messing up the formatting for the whole page. Thanks.

He's now a Falcon pilot - not too bright.

 

[pilotyip]

Military

You have a 757 Type Rating and you don't know visibility is controlling?

He is a former military pilot. Having operated under military flt rules for many years and never had any civilian instrument training. I had a type in the L-188. Taking a 40-question test to get your Comm/inst./sel/mel rating nor taking the ATP written doesn't make you an expert on civilian flt rules. It wasn't until I got my CFII that I learned that Vis was controlling.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I agree with everyone about Part 91. You can begin the approach with any reported weather, you just can't land unless you have the flight visibility.

However, when it comes to 135 and 121, it isn't as cut and dry and some have suggested:

§ 135.78 Instrument approach procedures and IFR landing minimums.

top
No person may make an instrument approach at an airport except in accordance with IFR weather minimums and instrument approach procedures set forth in the certificate holder's operations specifications.

and

§ 121.567 Instrument approach procedures and IFR landing minimums.

top
No person may make an instrument approach at an airport except in accordance with IFR weather minimums and instrument approach procedures set forth in the certificate holder's operations specifications.

Since the FAA uses the plural, there is more than one landing minimum to be considered. This could be because of high mins captains or there could be some ops specs that require the ceiling to be reported above minimums. The point is, the assumption that all 135 and 121 carriers only need the visibility and only the visibility is a bad assumption.

When it comes right down to it, you just have to consider the safety of the flight. Obviously, flying the aircraft 400 feet off the ground with no realistic chance of seeing the runway isn't the smartest thing in the world. Not to say that approaches aren't safe, but there is a reduced margin for error. So the question becomes not if the approach is legal, but if it is really necessary.

 

[TimsKeeper]

minimums

I've worked for two Part 135 operators now that the POI insisted on the manual stating "minimums" required.....vis and ceiling. Interestingly enough both companies had the same POI.

I've also worked at several others operators that didn't specifically define "minimums" and went by just the vis.

What is in your given Operating Specifications is what counts if you are 135. Most manuals i've seen don't have anything specific and you are guided by what KSU is talking about in 135.78.

 

[arewethereyet]

Your BOSS is correct. Unless the approach mins. actually specify a ceiling.