• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

APA Uses Continental 61 To Support Age-60 Rule

CopilotDoug

Captain of Industry
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
2,644
Total Time
Done!
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/apa_continental_pilot_died_age60_65_200593-1.html


By Glenn Pew, Contributing Editor, Video Editor



Speaking for the Allied Pilots Association, spokesman Scott Shankland told WFAA TV in Dallas/Forth Worth, Thursday, that incidents like the Thursday death of a pilot aboard Continental Flight 61 will be more likely, and he knows why. Shankland told the TV station, "this is the reality of what we're going to be dealing with on an increasing bases as a result of the increase of retirement age to 65." Pilot Craig A. Lenell died at the age of 60 while serving as captain aboard the Continental flight. He was examined on the flight by a 72-year-old cardiologist who attempted to revive the captain with the aid of an onboard defibrillator (mandatory since 2004). Of the multiple events involving a pilot's incapacitation or death while piloting a commercial airliner that AVweb reviewed for this story, none resulted in additional fatalities as a direct result of the flight losing a pilot -- a point with which Shankland concurs. He did, however, point out that losing one pilot on a domestic airline flight would more often than not leave the flight in the hands of a sole remaining pilot who would be required to then declare an emergency and land soon as practical. But, for Shankland, and presumably APA, there are other considerations.


Speaking of the benefits of a two-pilot flight deck and multiple systems redundancy, Shankland said that "when you lose one of those pilots, you've lost some of that redundancy." About two years ago, the FAA increased the mandatory retirement age for pilots from age 60 to age 65. The rule also requires that the other pilot be under the age of 60. Shankland had been publicly speaking out against the change since at least mid-2007, when another Continental pilot died while en route from Houston to Puerto Vallarta. As he told PBS then, "It is a statistical fact that, as people get older, you start having more of these events, both the sudden catastrophic events and the subtle effects of aging. So it's not maybe these things are going to occur. I mean, these already are occurring, and they will occur with more frequency as people continue to fly for a longer age."
 

pilotyip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
13,629
Total Time
14000
Did we never have an-in-flight incapacitation prior to the age 65 rule? Was anything done then to reduce the age of a pilot? How about a rule we lower the retirement age to the age of the last pilot whom had the in-flight incapacitation. If he was 58 years old then that will be the new retirement. If the next guy is 48 that becomes the new retirement. That would really be the safest way to do it. Wouldn’t it? Age 60 was forced on the pilots back in 1958. ALPA was still fighting to get it repealed up until about 1970. This rule had nothing to do with safety; it was a deal between two W.W.II USAF Generals, AAL's C.R. Smith and Pete Quesada (sp.?) the first head of the FAA. It was to get rid of high paid pilots at the top of AAL the seniority list. It was done in the name of safety, because who can be against safety. It is like motherhood and patriotism
 

Andy Neill

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,293
Total Time
6200
Will APA be negotiating for a mandatory age 60 retirement at American on the next go around? They can negotiate any retirement age at or below the federal limit - right?
 

CopilotDoug

Captain of Industry
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
2,644
Total Time
Done!
YIP, I'm looking at the underlying message. APA is speaking out against Age 61 for one reason: It's members don't like it. When it comes to representation, the Union is their to represent the membership's collective will. Where's ALPA on this topic???
 

pilotyip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
13,629
Total Time
14000
here is why

YIP, I'm looking at the underlying message. APA is speaking out against Age 61 for one reason: It's members don't like it. When it comes to representation, the Union is their to represent the membership's collective will. Where's ALPA on this topic???
It is this, I think I see a battle cry that the retirement age should be moved back to age 60 for safety reasons. If in-flight incapacitation is a problem then why set age 60 when there have been cases of in-flight incapacitation in past when the age 60 rules was still in effect. If we are really moving it for safety reason then it should be moved back under any age that has ever suffered an in-flight incapacitation. I believe this has very little to do with safety, much like in 1958 when the age 60 was established, there are other issues driving. I'll have to watch being attacked now for having insensitive to safety issues.
 

CopilotDoug

Captain of Industry
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
2,644
Total Time
Done!
It is this, I think I see a battle cry that the retirement age should be moved back to age 60 for safety reasons. If in-flight incapacitation is a problem then why set age 60 when there have been cases of in-flight incapacitation in past when the age 60 rules was still in effect. If we are really moving it for safety reason then it should be moved back under any age that has ever suffered an in-flight incapacitation. I believe this has very little to do with safety, much like in 1958 when the age 60 was established, there are other issues driving. I'll have to watch being attacked now for having insensitive to safety issues.
I'm on the same page. Although, statistically, there most likely would be an increasing likelihood of pilots croaking past that Age 60 mark than say Age 45.

Yes, I understand why they're selling this under the "Safety" guise.
 

Guam360

spam and rice please
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Posts
808
Total Time
>8000
Did we never have an-in-flight incapacitation prior to the age 65 rule? Was anything done then to reduce the age of a pilot? How about a rule we lower the retirement age to the age of the last pilot whom had the in-flight incapacitation. If he was 58 years old then that will be the new retirement. If the next guy is 48 that becomes the new retirement. That would really be the safest way to do it. Wouldn’t it? Age 60 was forced on the pilots back in 1958. ALPA was still fighting to get it repealed up until about 1970. This rule had nothing to do with safety; it was a deal between two W.W.II USAF Generals, AAL's C.R. Smith and Pete Quesada (sp.?) the first head of the FAA. It was to get rid of high paid pilots at the top of AAL the seniority list. It was done in the name of safety, because who can be against safety. It is like motherhood and patriotism
If you really think ALPA is out for the pilots best interests, like maybe allowing them to fly longer, for whatever reason they sell it as, then you are drinking the ALPA cool-aid or dreaming, it is about those higher end paid pilots, all the pilots that are at the tops of their respective payscales, ALPA benefits from that!!! ALPA is a business.
wake up.
 

pilotyip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
13,629
Total Time
14000
Exactly

If you really think ALPA is out for the pilots best interests, like maybe allowing them to fly longer, for whatever reason they sell it as, then you are drinking the ALPA cool-aid or dreaming, it is about those higher end paid pilots, all the pilots that are at the tops of their respective payscales, ALPA benefits from that!!! ALPA is a business.
wake up.
couldn't agree more, this is not safety issue. It is apprached under the cover of safety for some other issue which many including ALPA will use to call for a change in something.
 

CopilotDoug

Captain of Industry
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
2,644
Total Time
Done!
If you really think ALPA is out for the pilots best interests, like maybe allowing them to fly longer, for whatever reason they sell it as, then you are drinking the ALPA cool-aid or dreaming, it is about those higher end paid pilots, all the pilots that are at the tops of their respective payscales, ALPA benefits from that!!! ALPA is a business.
wake up.
Bingo...Guam gets it.

PilotYIP said:
It is apprached under the cover of safety for some other issue which many including ALPA will use to call for a change in something.
Actually, YIP...you would think that's the case. Remember, ALPA went against the will of the pilot group (as is so often the case) on Age 65.
 

pilotyip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
13,629
Total Time
14000
Don't have the answer

Bingo...Guam gets it.

Actually, YIP...you would think that's the case. Remember, ALPA went against the will of the pilot group (as is so often the case) on Age 65.
I know ALPA fought to remove the age 60 retirement until the 1970's, when they seemed to endorse it. I am not sure how they were involved in the congressional act of December 2007 that rasied the age to 65. I know there was a lot of oppsition to removing age 60 seen on this sight
 

CopilotDoug

Captain of Industry
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
2,644
Total Time
Done!
I am not sure how they were involved in the congressional act of December 2007 that rasied the age to 65.
When it comes to Capitol Hill, ALPA is just along for the ride (Don't tell the membership!) Knowing full well that Age 65 was going to happen regardless of ALPA's position, Prater and ALPA's executive board decided it would be in ALPA's best interest to save political face. Even though ALPA's membership was in opposition to Age 65...the executive board decided to not fight an Age 65 proposal.

Don't ask what ALPA can do for you...but what you can do for ALPA.
 

Carl_Spackler

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2005
Posts
705
Total Time
9500
Even though ALPA's membership was in opposition to Age 65...the executive board decided to not fight an Age 65 proposal.

Not only that, but after several votes/surveys that showed alpa pilots didn't favor the change, the executive board formed the "blue ribbon panel" which resulted to the support for age 65. Guess who gets to serve an extra 5 years on the executive board now?
 
Top