Anyone know what crop dusting pays?????

[gsrcrsx68]

And as far a calling a pilot arrogant: Why be so redundant?

 

[A Squared]

Nobody cares about how people did it 30 years ago, walked up hill both ways, it was a lot harder back then, yada, yada, yada. It really is that simple.

OK, let's count:

Rightpedal was flying ag not long ago, this decade I beleive. I don't know when Avbug last flew a swath on crops, but I know from personal correspondence with him that he still follows the industry closely and would get back in should the right situation come up. Bugchaser was flying ag as recently as last year.

So when you yap on about "30 years ago" you're pretty much running your mouth without having the faintest idea what you're talking about.

 

[gsrcrsx68]

See above, the part where I already told you I don't care.

 

[svcta]

Seriously, this degenerated in to a pretty low grade pissing contest pretty rapidly. Probably the worst I've seen on this board. GSR is right in so much as that the guy just asked a question and a bunch of people sort of blindsided him. It's like listening to a bunch of motorcycle salesmen talk about their weekend trip while a customer stands there trying to get some attention.


In the interest of clearing this up, how would you people suggest that someone find out about the pay situation in your too-cool-for-us business?

 

[A Squared]

See above, the part where I already told you I don't care.

I'm not particularly surprised. I'm sure that someone who posts twadle that is as far off base as yours really doesn't care to have that fact pointed out.

 

[A Squared]

Seriously, this degenerated in to a pretty low grade pissing contest pretty rapidly. Probably the worst I've seen on this board.

Oh, it gets much worse, trust me.

You might take a look at the first 8 posts or so and ask yourself who's primarily responsible for it becoming that way. The original poster asked a question that was based in a rather presumptious and ill informed premise. (that ag flying is something that you do in youre days off) Despite that, the responses were all fairly polite. Even avbug who tends to get excited on occasion posted a fairly mild response. It wasn't until 670X posted his second post, calling folks "SJS guys" and generally acting like a complete jerk tht the thread went south. It's all right there in the thread.

GSR is right in so much as that the guy just asked a question and a bunch of people sort of blindsided him.

You know, I've always been curious about this penomenon, and perhaps you can provide an answer. How is it that people come to a public discussion board, post something and have the expectation that the thread will go exactly the way they want, that only the questions asked will answered and nobody will say anything that hurts the poster's feelings? Where does that expectation come from? I ask you, as you seem to be espousing this fallacy, so maybe you can provide some insight. It's a public forum for discussion. If you post, you can exepct a discussion. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

In the interest of clearing this up, how would you people suggest that someone find out about the pay situation in your too-cool-for-us business?

well. *my* suggestion would be to go back and read the thread, the question has been answered, in a fair amount of detail. There was also some other information that would be useful to someone with an interest in becoming an ag pilot.

I have to ask, have you actually read this thread?

 

[Denizen]

You know, I've always been curious about this penomenon, and perhaps you can provide an answer. How is it that people come to a public discussion board, post something and have the expectation that the thread will go exactly the way they want, that only the questions asked will answered and nobody will say anything that hurts the poster's feelings? Where does that expectation come from?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I think it is just the general sense of entitlement people have today.
When I first came here I asked for information and got great insight from a poster named Mar, and Cruxx. I asked simple questions and got good advice. I suppose it is all in the way you ask.
But it does seem like no one wants the advice they ask for. Often times it seems like they just want to be re-assured that they are making the right decision, even if that decision isn't supported by the facts. That seems to happen all the time on the FAR type questions.

 

[svcta]

It also depends on where you post it. I've shifted focus away from certain parts of this board as my job description has changed over the years. This one and the regionals and majors boards are the worst.


And yes, I've read this thread. In general it seemed as if it sort of turned in to a tag-team smackdown after someone decided that they disapproved of the tone.

 

[avbug]

The guy ask for some facts about pay, if the guy wanted other sorts of opinions he would have asked.

He did ask, and he got what he asked for. He just didn't like it, and whined about it. Then got righteous about it. He specifically asked for the insight of qualified people. He got it.

In the interest of clearing this up, how would you people suggest that someone find out about the pay situation

It's already been given. Repeatedly.

I don't know when Avbug last flew a swath on crops,

I'm current.

Here is one lesson, with as much respect as possible:
Nobody cares about how people did it 30 years ago, walked up hill both ways, it was a lot harder back then, yada, yada, yada. It really is that simple.

The information given is current. Not 30 years ago, but here and now. Welcome to the real world.

 

[A Squared]

It also depends on where you post it. I've shifted focus away from certain parts of this board as my job description has changed over the years. This one and the regionals and majors boards are the worst.

That could be, I don't hang out on those forums much.

And yes, I've read this thread.

OK, I guess I'm at a loss here, your question about where to go to find out the pay suggests you didn't see that the question was answered, but you say you did read it......???? OK, not important I guess.

In general it seemed as if it sort of turned in to a tag-team smackdown after someone decided that they disapproved of the tone.

Yeah, it did turn into a smackdown, but I think that calling posters condescending names and telling them to post thier opinions elsewhere had a lot to do with that.

Like I said in a previous post, people are going to contribute various things to a thread, and it may be something more then the anrswer to the specific question you asked. That's the nature of forums, the nature of conversations in general. To expect (and even insist) othewise, as 670X does, is pretty arrogant.

Maybe you can see what I mean if use a hypothetical, instead of the current discussion which is probably beyond salvage. OK, let's say I popped up on a bush flying forum and asked if anyone knew the price of a good Ercoupe, as I wanted one to transport fishing clients at the wilderness lodge I was planning to open. Now, I would expect (hope, even) that the other, more informed forum members would point out some of the difficulties of what I propose, the low useful load, poor short field performance, the fact that you can't put floats on an Ercoupe, etc. Even if I chose to disregard thier advice, I'd at least be more informed about the challenges I was facing with my project.

What I would *not* do, however, is call them names and tell them to post thier opinions elsewhere, because I only asked the price of Ercoupes and wasn't interested in anything else. And that is *exactly* what 670X has done.

 

[svcta]

OK, I guess I'm at a loss here, your question about where to go to find out the pay suggests you didn't see that the question was answered, but you say you did read it......???? OK, not important I guess.

Yes, and I deliberately waited until the answer had been delivered before commenting.


Moving on.....

 

[670X]

WOW..........

I'm speechless...First time ever.


I'm sorry does that sound arrogant?

 

[inline]

Actually, you got replies from experienced ag pilots, myself included. It's not a lark; it's a career.

You'll need state certification. You'll need an understanding of chemicals and their specific application to the crop and insect. You'll need to know crops, and you'll need to know insects, as well as have a good grasp of plant diseases, entimology, and the ability to recognize and diagnose the needs of a crop. You'll need to be insurable. That isn't easy in the ag business. You'll need someone who's willing to take a chance on you, and "I like to fly low and look out the window" is a far cry from cutting it.

Ag work is a tough industry with many of the good jobs history, and what's available taken by experience. Much of the equipment today is turbine equipment, and merely because you flew on a regional airliner doesn't equip you, prepare you, or qualify you to fly a turbine tailwheel airplane with very limited performance in a precision application.

What are your tolerances on the ILS? Think you're a sharp cookie, do you? Make it six inches right or left and about a foot of altitude, and hold that all day long with steep turns at 75' every 30 seconds. Do it in turbulence. Then get a drift complaint from a housewife with a dead tree or a farmer with a crop looking for a fast claim, and see your season's profits go away, as well as your job.

Or just add your name to the list of those who made the posted life average for spray pilots years ago of seven years. Some drag it down, some drag it up, but your attitude screams down. As in won't survive the first season, if you're able to find a job, and your attitude doesn't scream "give this guy a job."

The traditional route into the cockpit involves coming aboard as a loader, mixing chemical, working on the airplanes, loading chemical, cleaning the airplanes, assisting in crop surveys in the field (collecting and identifying bugs)...for a few years until you're considered safe and ready to get in a small pawnee and go spray out a few gallons of rinse. Then supervision for a few more years as you get broken in. Many areas of the country, the farmers still call the 20 year local the "new guy." They don't trust the new guy.

You'll be spraying parathion, or diomethoate, or any other number of organophosphates...a drop of the concentrate on your tongue will kill you. Sit in a puddle and your testicles absorb it nearly as fast. It stays in your system. Think about it.

When you're flying low and looking out the window, you'll be seeing crop going by, these days an agnav or satloc bar up near the nose of the airplane that works a lot like a localizer, and you'll be looking for powerlines. Not a lot of sightseeing.

Go haul your butt into an ag school for a start. Then hit the bricks and start asking every spray operator you come to (and you'll likely talk to a lot of them) for a job. You'll get the big picture fairly quickly. You'll soon discover that most operators and most insurance wants at least a thousand hours of ag before they'll talk to you.

Got six thousand hours in your regional airplane doing nice stable point to point flying...and got twenty five hours of ag coming out of your school, for which you just spent as much as a type rating? Then you're not a six thousand hour pilot. You're a twenty five hour pilot, and you can expect your job prospects to mirror that. Check your mirror for arrogance; ag flying isn't a joyride.

What are you going to do for those other nine months? That's up to you. Pursue more work. Get enough years of experience to qualify to fire work, or bigger equipment. Go international. Do like many and follow the crops. Get enough experience to qualify to go south of the border and do some real work; spray poppies and coca. Put your money where your mouth is, lift a finger to help yourself.

You want to be an owner operator doing ag work, do you? You've already heard from some who were. You really need to rethink that. You haven't started and you're in way, way over your head.

Ever done stall practice in steep turns at 75' before? Ever flown under powerlines before? Are you accustomed to washing your aircraft every time you fly it, and are you willing to do that when it's covered in poison? Can you work on the airplane, and do you have the mechanical experience to do it, and the qualifications? You'd better. Do you know what it means to fly a truly performance limited airplane? Ever had a real emergency? Do you know what a real crosswind feels like in a tailwheel airplane? How accustomed are you to working close to powerlines and obstacles. Not looking out the window and enjoying the view, but working the airplane, close to obstacles? What are you going to do at the end of the pass when you pull the stick back to your crotch and the airplane rotates but doesn't climb, and you're looking up at a quad set of powerlines? Still a lark to do in your spare time?

That helmet you'll be wearing...that eight hundred dollar helmet...it's not a crash helmet. It's to protect your head during normal flying. Hopefully you'll never need to find out if it's a crash helmet. You're proud of your flying now, are you? How do you think you'll explain away your first or second forced landing or crash, or wire strike, at your next interview, or the one after that? Do you have life insurance now? Think you'll be able to keep getting it after you start spraying? Have any idea what it will cost?

Thinking of giving up that cozy white shirt cockpit for a hot greenhouse canopy that wreaks of poison, filled with hot ram air and packed with pollen and other things that may just drive your sinuses over the edge? Ever had a bird in the cockpit with you, or a deer strike when one comes sailing out of the wheat or corn, into your wing or propeller? Will you mind having your teeth replaced with artificial ones after you realize that the your originals that are embedded in what's left of the instrument panel after your first wire strike aren't any good any more?

Tell us about your qualifications to do the job. Your low level experience. Your conventional gear experience. Your turbine tailwheel experience. Your ag certification. Your farm experience. Your chemical experience. Your emergency experience. Your maintenance background and experience. Got your own tools? You break it, you fix it, you know.

Your attitude IS arrogance, mate. If you ever climb into the game with one or both feet, you'll find that out very quickly.

Pick the "aviation flying career" and YOU have ALL the answers! Your contempt for airline pilots is obvious ( because you've never done it, right?) yessir, the all-knowing windbag av-bug has the answer!

 

[avbug]

You've come here to contribute to the thread then, have you? Very well then.

Ag I've been doing since high school, so yes, I do have a little experience there. High School was a long time ago, mate.

Airline, cargo, corporate, fractional...yes. I do have experience. However, I don't believe I expressed any contempt here. Flying point to point in a nice tidy white shirt, in a narrow sliver of the operational envelope with an aircraft that has considerable performance on one engine, let alone two and a suite of avionics to do one's job for one...is not at all the same as operating an ag airplane.

I've consistantly seen two trouble areas with pilots coming into ag and fire; airline pilots and military pilots. Both have been the biggest source of trouble for most operators with which I have been involved. One operator for whom I flew wouldn't hire pilots with military experience or with airline experience, based on several decades of experience with them. This, even though the owner, president, vice president, and chief pilot were all former career military. The policy was their idea, based on their personal experience with airline and military in the operation.

Call it what you will, hotshot, but best yet, rush out and get someone to hire you in an ag seat. Survive a season or two without a drift claim, crash, or losing your life back, then post your depth of experience on this subject when you resurrect the thread.

Until that time, you might try offering something on the subject that's relevant to the thread at hand.

 

[Waldom]

Here is one lesson, with as much respect as possible:
Nobody cares about how people did it 30 years ago, walked up hill both ways, it was a lot harder back then, yada, yada, yada. It really is that simple.

The guy ask for some facts about pay, if the guy wanted other sorts of opinions he would have asked.

My response was an attempt to keep someone who appeared to think he was bullet-proof alive.

 

[aucfi]

Flying point to point in a nice tidy white shirt, in a narrow sliver of the operational envelope with an aircraft that has considerable performance on one engine, let alone two and a suite of avionics to do one's job for one...is not at all the same as operating an ag airplane.

Pretty much describes why I will never go to the regionals or other airlines. I enjoy my smelly old Shorts with its /A and no autopilot. I enjoy flying.

 

[svcta]

Well, my dad can beat up your dads.

 

[svcta]

double post. Stupid hotel connections. Bet my dad can beat up this hotel connection, too.

 

[AlbieF15]

Pardon me, but it does look fun as hell. I also understand how easy it could be to end your life and career with a moments inattention.

 

[bugchaser]

Hey Albie, it is fun. Sometimes. First load in the morning and last one at night. All the rest is just a grind. One of the problems with Ag flying is that everyone thinks that it looks like fun. Guys that have been there and done that, try to tell the real story and it comes across pretty negative to the wannabe guys. I think that while most guys that do this enjoy the hands on type of flying, most will also tell you that it is by far the hardest work they have ever done. It is very hard to tell someone what this job is like without being somewhat negative. There are lots of negatives to talk about. Some make lots of money. Some die way too young. Many struggle to pay their bills. And a very few have a good career and retire happy. Not trying to be negative, just stating the facts. As for flying skill, I suppose you have to have a little natural ability, but I have always thought that anyone can learn how to fly good enough to spray. Very few however will ever be good applicators. Flying the airplane is a small part of the job. I guess the best thing you could do to see if you would like it is go get a Cessna 150 or something like that and tape up all the air vents. Wait of a nice windy day when its up in the 90's and start flying right before dawn. Go fly around doing ground reference maneuvers, stalls, lazy eights, whatever. Land every hour and top off the gas. Don't stay on the ground longer than 5 min if possible. Keep doing this all day until the sun sets. Give yourself 10 min on the ground at lunch time so that you can grab a sandwich to eat in the air. If you want to get even more realistic, try to do a couple of crossword puzzles while flying to simulate all the paperwork you'll have to do during the day. And maybe leave the carb heat on or run on one mag to better get a feel for an overloaded, underpowered airplane. Again, not trying to be negative, but that is the reality of an ag pilots life. Now do this for 7 days straight and let us know what you think. Thats pretty much what it takes. Only you'll be doing it everyday, all summer. Trust me, after a few 80+ hour weeks, you won't care how much money your making or how much fun your having. Most people just have no idea what it's like to fly that hard for that many days back to back. It's true that not all ag pilots fly that hard, but you will have to if you want to make the big bucks. Avbug and the others are just trying to give you the facts. Either listen to us or find out for yourself. I loved parts of the ag job, but there is no way that I could have physically kept up the pace necessary to provide a decent living for my family. Thanks to some good fortune and even a little advice from Albie, I'm pretty happy touring America in a 737.