Anyone here attend law school?

[merikeyegro]

I've had enough of my constant rants about rights and government and my general enmity for the TSA. I've decided to, once and for all, give up the quest for the airline job and go to law school. It fits my personality to a "T" and I know I'd be darn good at it. I'm already on the way with my being a Union steward and secretary, and ACLU member, and one hell of an arguer...

...Now, that being said, my grades from my undergraduate education were not exactly stellar. I received a BS in an engineering field, finishing with a 2.92 GPA (4.0 scale). Worked my rear off trying to get "C"s in a few materials, linear algebra, and dynamics classes. I kicked butt in PoliSci classes and know that some of the kids in those classes got into law school and I could have followed suit with their grades (in PoliSci). I have yet to take the LSAT. Don't know how I'll do. I know I'll do well in grad school, as I'm already pulling "A"s in my MBA program. This opportunity has really lit a fire under my butt...So, anyone know how well I'll have to do on the LSAT to get into a middle-of-the-road law school? Obviously, the big dogs are out of my range, but I know that with a good essay and recommendations I could get in. Only problem is that I have no idea how this whole LSAT will work out. Looks pretty tough. I take tests well, but this one will have the added pressure of making up for mediocre grades.

So, anyone have any words of wisdom, encouragement, or doom? Please let me know. This was a HUGE decision for me. Flying is wonderful, just not my calling. I'll continue to fly, but not for a living. Any help is appreciated. Thanks much.

I'll post this over on the "General" forum, too...

 

[rightrudder]

I haven't gone to law school but considered it several years ago.

The fact that you are in an MBA program and doing well will help you in your quest. They will see that as improvement you have made as you have "matured". Doing well on the LSAT is vital as well. Take a prep class and avail yourself of all the test prep materials available in print and for the PC.

Many law schools want to see a well-rounded individual. If it has been some time since you obtained your bachelors degree, you now have some valuable life experience to offer that someone right out of school doesn't have.

Try to find out if there are any law school admission symposiums you can attend. I think the LSDAS has these year-round (search google for LSAT or LSDAS). You'd have the opportunity to speak with recruiters from different schools and see what they think of you as a candidate.

Good luck.

 

[HatWearer]

I am too interseted in law school after being an instructor for over 2 years. I have a 4-year aviation degree from a good university, been instructing and trying to get on with a regional and it hasn't worked. Like merikeyegro said, flying is fun, but at some point it becomes a lost cause and you have to look at other options.

I am currently in the process of applying to law school. I had a good undergrad GPA, but did not do good on the LSAT. I am still going to apply but some of the better schools are now out of question, although I have found quite a few "good" schools that are not as competative. Be sure and STUDY hard for the LSAT, get one of those review books or spend the $1000 and take a good review class. Once you learn how to do the questions it isn't too bad, but at 35min per section time becomes a big factor. I didn't take it as seriously as I needed to and it got me, it was much harder than I expected on test day.

I have flown with a few lawyers as a CFI and I can say most of them enjoy being lawyers and flying for fun...(because most of them can afford their own airplanes!)

Good Luck!

 

[JJJ]

There some things that are similar between the law and pilot professions.

Most peoples perception is that all pilots and all lawyers are rich. For every well off lawyer there are 10 poor ones. I think that there are alot of people that want to go to law school, or medical school, or flight school because they think that being a doctor/lawyer/pilot would be "cool" and would impress people. I would say that most people that want to go to law school don't know what is actually involved in being a lawyer. I bet most young people think that they argue cases everyday in court ala JAG and Matlock.

But if it's something you really want to do, do it.

 

[wil]

I wish you all the best. Highlight your work experience, et cetera. My grades were not steller either but was still able to be accepted to my Alma Mater for Law School. I think being an Alum helped. Does your undergrad school have a Law School? Also- if you have difficulty you may try an alternate route many have used- take the LSAT and apply to a non- ABA approved Law School (If you were to graduate from one you are limited to practice in the state where diploma issued). Do a year there then look to transfer to an ABA approved school. It may be a credit set back but you can show academic work from a Law School. Also- a non-ABA approved school (Western State in California for example) can still provide on heck of an income!!! Good luck in your career!!!

 

[70Cuda]

Got furloughed recently and am also in the process of applying to Law School. You need to hurry up and get the LSAT finished before the end of this month because most Schools have their cut-off date in Jan and Feb. To be competitive with a 3.0 GPA you probably need a score of around 160 or higher, unless you want to go to the "pay for your degree schools." Many of these are good schools but tuition will cost you one arm, one testicle, and maybe a few fingers and toes.

You NEED to register with LSAC. Check out LSAC.org for this and order a few practice exams. You need to study seriously for the test because it is difficult.

I don't think I'll be going back to the airlines because, personally, it's too boring flying pax around. By the time you blink twice your five day trip is over and you have nothing to show for it except you are five days older. Not knocking the industry because it's probably one of the better jobs out there, with all the great travel benifits. That's just my personal take.

Good Luck!!!

 

[chperplt]

If you're running late with your LSATs... UNLV Law has a March requirement, and not December like most.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Not to discourage you but there's an old saying:

"The surest cure for a love of the law is to spend time with lawyers."

Make sure you really want it before you set off down that path.

 

[Huck]

Cumberland (Samford University) Law, class of 1994 (what I did during the LAST airline slump). Wrote for Trial Journal. Did a little moot court and mock trials. Tried to slant my electives to the business and tax side of the house.

As my application process was during the last Bush presidency, I don't think I can be of much help, other than to point out that engineers are looked at favorably - I got my clerking job before I even started 1L - worked for the biggest aviation lawyer in Alabama on crash cases.

All I can say is - law is an even more consuming and brutal field than flying. And they both require a high level of devotion. Those that prosper in either flying or law are born to do it, and can't really explain it to other (i.e. normal) people. I made my choice, and thank God every day I did.

 

[Looking4Traffic]

LSAT

Class of 1986 from a Big Ten law school. Aviation was the second career for me.

Here's my advice. Don't rush out to get your LSAT exam done if you're not ready. And, yes, you should prepare -- particularly since your grade point average might otherwise eliminate you from the top 250 law schools. And, yes, where you go to law school makes a HUGE difference if you want to work for a successful commercial law firm in any city in the United States.

I prepared by going to the Stanley Kaplan LSAT prep classes. My recollection was that the classes took 3 weeks to complete and included class attendance and study sessions available in front of the computer. I studied for about 3-5 hours/day (in addition to the classes) and scored in the country's 99th percentile. I am convinced of two things: First, I would not have had near that score without the preparation and secondly -- with a 3.1 undergraduate GPA -- there is no way that I would have gotten into a top 20 law school without that LSAT score.

And it's made all the difference for me. Good luck.

 

[LAPD Airship]

There are 4 tiers of law schools. LSAT + Grades are a must to get into a decent one. Since you say you lack the grades, the LSAT you must do AWESOME on...and I mean, 170+.

I am in law school currently in NYC, and I absolutely love it. Flying is great, but the mental challenge, is well, completely lacking.

I did it to challenge myself, as well as protect myself in the future for what I see to be a very dangerous industry (aviation).

I am in a good law school, so the jobs will always be there. I don't mind working, and love litigation and the challenges and skill required in it. I just like to have choices.

Undergraduate degrees can come from anywhere, but graduate degrees are very much a different ball game - the school does matter.

If you want to make any money, kick ass on the LSAT, and go to the best school you can get into - even if you have to go into debt to do it.

Hope this helps.
Best of luck,

1L - New York University (NYU) School of Law

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/law/brief/lawrank_brief.php

 

[tittyjet]

Kaplan, Kaplan, Kaplan......need I say more?

Take the course -- it's well worth the money. Also, don't rush into taking the LSAT if you're not ready; with your GPA, you'll need all the help you can get.

Remember, getting in is 60% of the battle, surviving first year is 30%, and the rest is a piece of cake.

And it's always fun to be able to close letters with "govern yourself accordingly." That being said, govern yourself accordingly.

Regards,
Titty

 

[check six]

Huck said it best that to prosper at many things you've got to be all over it.

I have an engineering degree. It was a piece of cake for me. A and B student in ChemE at a Big Ten School. Finished with a 3.0GPA but always got A's in Econ, PolSci, etc. I have had engineering jobs for over 15 years, all of them easy. Made decent money doing it.

I did pretty good on GMAT with no prep. Top 20%. That test is made for engineers. I'm doing an MBA right now at a decent public university.

I've taken the LSAT a few times and the best I did was top 45%. Maybe I should do Kaplan.

Did the pilot thing. ATP, CFI, 135 etc. Went to the regionals and flamed because my stick skills were not there. I had 2000 hours at the time. (Never thought that would be a problem, I played sports forever and did good at it.) Engineering was never as hard as a 121 checkride.

After all this, I can say I have natural gifts to be good at math and science. Thought I had decent stick skills but they were not at the airline level. Probably would have come with time, but I saw some real naturals that had less time than me.

Moral of the story is that you can do whatever you put your mind to, but having the natural talent in flying, law, math sure helps. Give law a shot, you may kick butt in it.

 

[hobie]

LAPD-
Are you at NYU part time? Still working at a regional or gave it up all together? I'd like to go back to school but having a hard time actually dropping the sen. #. Trying to work on some sort of leave/TOWP for 1L.

 

[LAPD Airship]

LAPD-
Are you at NYU part time? Still working at a regional or gave it up all together? I'd like to go back to school but having a hard time actually dropping the sen. #. Trying to work on some sort of leave/TOWP for 1L.

Yes, I am in NYU part time - but it is still a BITCH to work everything out as far as timing...still at COEX as well......soooo, we do have educational leave in our company which I have contemplated taking since it will protect that sen # and give me more time, but so far everything is working out well, I do day or 2 day trips and obviously live in the base, so....so far so good.

 

[hobie]

Thanks for the info, I'm thinking of doing the same thing when I can control my schedule a bit more. I have to pretty much take what they give me for now, even after 2.5 years. That leave sure sounds good though.

 

[88_MALIBU]

Just took the LSAT about an hour ago. What a depressing test. I would rather take any FAA exam than that thing. My brain is gonna take a nap now

 

[FlyLawyer]

Law School

It's refreshing to see that many pilots have a strong desire to acquire dependable, marketable skills. As for as which law schools, choose the school that fits your needs. Don't become too concerned about whether or not the school is a Tier 1, 2, 3, or 4. Just make sure the school is ABA. Personally, I went to Michigan State because it was convenient. I have had the pleasure of meeting some of the most skilled litigators that were graduates of putative Tier 4 (lower level) schools. Conversely, I have met litigators who graduated from Tier 1 schools that are mediocre to say the least. Anyway, the Tier ranking is IMHO subjective at the very best. However, one thing that you may want to research is the first year attrition rate. You may want to rethink those that have attrition rates in excess of 15%.

As for LSAT, one of our office interns (a 2L) highly extols the virtues of the Testmaster Seminars. Said that it was well worth the money and prepared her well.

Good luck to all and when you are perusing those cases in the law school library on a Saturday afternoon, don't be dismayed when you look outside and see the airplanes flying over - stay focused. You can always return to flying after those three years.

Malibu_88

I feel your pain. That Fifth "test" (ungraded) section really takes its toll. Hope you did well.

 

[FlyLawyer]

NYU - Part Time???????????????

Yes, I am in NYU part time - but it is still a BITCH to work everything out as far as timing...still at COEX as well......soooo, we do have educational leave in our company which I have contemplated taking since it will protect that sen # and give me more time, but so far everything is working out well, I do day or 2 day trips and obviously live in the base, so....so far so good.

LAPD Airship:

An intern in our office noticed that you, according to your post, are a part timer at NYU. She is confused, for according to NYU's registrar and the LSAC law school guide they have no part time program whatsover. None. Thus, there seems to be an inconsistency with the above quote from your post and the information promulgated by the NYU Law School Registrar and LSAC. Please clarify this inconsistency for us. It must be excruciating attending law school part time at NYU and flying.

 

[AceCrackshot]

88_Malibu

I had a double dose of games on mine...my favorite, NOT.

It was the intellectual equivilent of a brussel sproat eating contest.

 

[Palerider957]

Man, there is some real wisdom on this board. It's good to see a thread without the b.ithc fest.

You guys are really stirring up some old thoughts in me. When i finished my undergrad, I was really torn between flying and law school. I come from a family of lawyers, so it was the natural order. But, flying called me a bit harder and here I am. If I ever lose my medical or just get plain PIS.SED OFF, I may pull the pin and head off to law schoo.

My cousin, an attorney, swears by Kaplan. If I were to go back to school I think I would sink the $$ into the program for sure.

I guess I don't have a lot of add to the above posters, but the thread was a real breath of fresh air.

 

[Palerider957]

Jetlink:

Just curious, what are you going to do when you finish law school? Stay with flying, or practice law (or both)?

 

[mesaba2425]

I'm in the process of applying. I used the Kaplan study guides and scored a 168 on the LSAT.

 

[LAPD Airship]

Re: NYU - Part Time???????????????

LAPD Airship:

An intern in our office noticed that you, according to your post, are a part timer at NYU. She is confused, for according to NYU's registrar and the LSAC law school guide they have no part time program whatsover. None. Thus, there seems to be an inconsistency with the above quote from your post and the information promulgated by the NYU Law School Registrar and LSAC. Please clarify this inconsistency for us. It must be excruciating attending law school part time at NYU and flying.

Is she confused or are you confused? Your intern needs more work if you kids are researching this....BUT to answer your question..the long and short of it....

I am a transfer student, being a 1L at a Texas school about 5 years ago now (just prior to getting into flying full time) in which I completed many credit hours. When I clerked for Jones Day, I made a lasting impression I guess with a couple of partners who I now "promulgate" credit for calling in some favors for me at their alma mater. I thus have a "reduced load" first year schedule that was approved for me being a xfer student yet needing to get back into the swing of things without having to take the full load of bovine statology (BS) busy work classes that I have already taken. Soooo, the "part time" status was not all together accurate in the traditional sense.

As for years 2 and 3, we shall see how that goes, but as you surely know, it is no where near the level of intensity as 1L.

I would not describe what I am doing as excruciating, but rather challenging (or maybe stupid??). So far so good...its finals time and I have made it just fine. Of course, I slam click on the overnights which are actually good for me to get me out of the social temptations of NYC on the nights I am actually at home. Plus I carry this 80 pound (and I am not exaggerating) backpack with me everywhere I go...read/work on sits at the airports, overnights, and cruise flight segments


I am now a master of time management. And thank god for Lexis and high-speed internet....its my own mobile library.

So what are you? An airline pilot and a lawyer? A lawyer and a weekend warrior?

I am aware of two lawyer-pilots at Continental, and 1 at American. I am sure there are more out there.

To answer someone else's question, I plan to stick to flying as long as I can see some upward mobility in this industry. When I quit after year one to start flying, that is all I wanted to do. When I clerked at such a large firm such as Jones Day, that sealed my desire not to work in such a large firm doing sometimes interesting, most of the time not so interesting work (at least to me anyway). This will allow me to have more control over my life and never be dependant on an industry that is so subject to the unknown. At least people will always sue each other

I needed some mental stimulation in my life. Law school was the answer to this and maybe one day I will run for a judgeship or something. Flying, while a good and easy profession, is NOT mentally stimulating except for the times I get to yell at gate agents, TSA idiots, and other morons whose job I have to know in addition to mine because they are morons and for some reason pilots are held responsible for everyone else's inaction.

 

[Looking4Traffic]

Law School Selection

I agree with PaleRider -- it's been interesting reading everyone's comments on this thread and surprising to learn just how many pilots have taken a shot at the LSATs and at law school itself.

I would just like to respectfully disagree about one thing that FlyLawyer had to say: that you need not be concerned about whether the school is a "Tier 1, 2, 3 or 4" law school. I'm not familiar with that nomenclature but I feel strongly that an applicant should ABSOLUTELY be concerned about the quality (and ranking) of the school they consider.

If you don't believe me, call the placement office at a top 30 law school and ask them how many law firms came on campus to interview the L2s for summer clerkships last year. Ask the same question of a top 100 law school. Then take a look in a Martindale Hubbell at the resumes of personnel in reputable law firms throughout the country -- take a look at where these people went to school. Stop by your local US Attorney's office or the Attorney General's office or the County Attorney's office -- find out where those guys went to school. I can tell you that the vast majority of these attorneys graduated from a top 30-50 law school.

If you want to hang your own shingle in a small town, then by all means go to a "Tier 4" law school. But if you want to maximize your options when you graduate, then you better be in the top 1/3 of your class at a quality law school or the top 1-2% of your class at that "Tier 4" law school (and on the Law Review) or you'll find yourself with quite a bit of debt and few job opportunities in this lawyer-gluttened market.

"Thank you your honor, the State rests."