Anyone ever own a cabin-class twin?

[HueyPilot]

Hopefully in the near future I'll jump in and buy a single. But ultimately at some point I'd like to own a twin, like a Cessna 414/421 or Piper Navajo.

Anybody own one before and have some info on costs, financing, maintenance, use, and perhaps recommend a model to shoot for? Thanx!

 

[350DRIVER]

The C421 is decent but I surely would research the insurance reqt's before jumping into this one. I was captain on it during my last stand in 135 and it was a "fun" bird to fly and kept you on your toes. It sure seemed like the insurance company looked at the plane (C421) as "higher risk" because it took some pretty hefty negotiating on behalf of our director of ops and others to get to the point of being "insurable". It was somewhat funny because I was already captain on other equipment and had a nice amount of turbine pic time. The insurance demanded that a training provider come in and conduct a ground school, flight training, testing, and finally a checkride by someone other than our chief pilot. It was somewhat comical because they also insure our DO-328 jets. Anyways, a fun plane to fly with some decent power. 375 hp is not bad for a cessna. The GTSIO 520 engines are pretty reliable if you keep them in good condition and don't screw anything up. The mx department always had fits with this airplane, if it wasn't one problem then it was something else that ended up being costly. I surely would get the aircraft inspected multiple times by different A&P's who know the 421 extremely well since it has been known to be a mx hog.


I personally would look at an older King Air, you cannot go wrong with PT-6's on the wings.

3 5 0

any specifics feel free to ask

 

[Gulfstreamlover]

Did an Aero Commander ever cross your mind? The best handling airplane I've ever flown.

 

[msw]

Cabin class twins, etc

I'd also like to hear from anybody with good info on maintenance costs, reliability issues etc, on cabin class twins, particularly with respect to the Seneca II and the smaller Piper Navajos. (Yeah, I know, the Seneca ain't really "cabin class" - but they seem more affordable, and can be had with oxygen systems, and de-icing equipment, both of which I'd really like on my next airplane.)

I've owned a Cherokee Six for about 11 years, flown it all over the US (cross country west coast to east coast about 7 times in the past 12 years) and over most of the western United States quite a bit. Been a good plane, but I too have longed for the extra speed, altitude capability and de-icing equipment that could be found on a cabin class twin. I looked seriously at buying a 1977 RAM IV Cessna 414 about 2 1/2 years ago; the outfit I fly for was selling it so I knew the plane inside and out, knew it's maintenance history, also had a couple of hundred hours flying it. I could've got it for about $230,000, which would have been a good price. Insurance for me would have been about $5000 a year (I had FlightSafety training already on the 414 and about 300 hours in type) - but on the other hand, I only pay about $1200/yr for my Cherokee Six hull and liability insurance. In the end, it wasn't the purchase price or the insurance costs that kept me from buying the 414; it was the average $22,000/year (averaged over about ten years of operation by my employer) in maintenance costs, which, from talking to other owners of cabin class (especially pressurized) twins, is a pretty commonplace figure. My Cherokee Six has averaged about $2500/yr in maintenance costs (which includes occasional avionics repairs - i.e. "tuneups" for the older Collins Mircroline radios) over the same decade+ time frame. I AM still considering something like a Seneca II or an unpressurized Piper Navajo, but despite having some time in both (25+ years ago!) don't have much knowledge about their operating costs. It just seems that the pressurized airplanes have proportionally MUCH greater maintenance issues and costs.

350Driver: I'd love to get a King Air! Been flying a B200 for the last couple of years. If I can find about 4 - 5 partners in SoCal, and we all put in about $250K each, I figure I can do it. About $800,000 - $1,000,000, should get an older 200 or maybe a clean E90. Anyone interested?

 

[350DRIVER]

350Driver: I'd love to get a King Air! Been flying a B200 for the last couple of years. If I can find about 4 - 5 partners in SoCal, and we all put in about $250K each, I figure I can do it. About $800,000 - $1,000,000, should get an older 200 or maybe a clean E90. Anyone interested?

1967 BEECH/RAYTHEON KING AIR A90


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BEECH/RAYTHEON KING AIR A90, 1967, S/N: LJ266, N55LH, 9650 TT, 6035 SMOH / 5385 SMOH, 600/0 SHSI, IFR, King Air A90 available for immediate sale! , $307,598

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This is an A90 that has been corporate maintained all of its life. It has had only 3 owners, and is current on the MORE program. NDH. P & I 7/7. Contact Christopher Dean for full spec sheet. Phase I/II completed 04/02, Phase III/IV completed 01/03. Contact Christopher Dean @ 316.650.5072 or James Davis @ 316.650.1495 for pics and full spec sheet -- this is not a plane that you want to pass on.

ALL SPECIFICATIONS ABOVE AND BELOW SUBJECT TO VERIFICATION BY PURCHASER. AIRCRAFT OFFERED SUBJECT TO PRIOR SALE OR WITHDRAWAL FROM THE MARKET.

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Airframe:
9650 Hrs
NDH

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Engine Specs:
PT6-20
6035L/5385R SMOH
600L/0R SHSI

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Additional Equipment:
Approach Certified and Coupled GPS
Copilot instruments
Yaw Famper
Prop Sync
Cleveland Brakes
Fore & Aft refreshment centers
Dual Slaved HSI/RMI
Belted Potty with divider
Dual writing tables

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Interior:
Cream Leather with Blue tweed sides.
rated 7

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Exterior:
Matterhorn White base with Blue and Grey stripes
rated 7

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Avionics / Radios:
Collins 618M-2B Com 1 & 2
Collins 51VR-1 Nav 1 & 2
Collins DME-451
FD-108 4" L/PN-101 R HSI
Collins FD-108 Flight Director
Collins Dual 621A-3 Xpndrs
King H-14 AP
King KN-74 RNAV
King KLN-89B Approach Certified GPS
Bendix RDR160 Monochromatic Radar
Sigtronics SPA400 intercom
Collins dual audio panel
Collins 41Z-6MB marker beacon

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Modifications / Conversions:
MORE program 8000 Hrs. TBO

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Inspection Status:
current on all inspections

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Say you saw it on Controller.com!
Contact:
Synergy Air
Christopher Dean
Aircraft is located in:
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Phone: (316)650-5072

If you put in the $250,000, we get a few more people then I will put in the remaining money to get it up to $307,000




3 5 0

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

Watch the older 200s. At 10,000 cycles there's an expensive inspection (get to take all the pro-seal out of the back of the airplane to inspect for some cracks). At the shop I currently swing wrenches for, we just did one of these, with 3 and 4 phase inspections--and I'd bet the bill will easily top 30 grand. I know of 50 man hours just removing pro-seal in the back--the front gets inspected too (but isn't as bad--you just have to take all the avionics out of the nose).

That said, I'd like to fly it. All this working on King Airs and never flying them is gettin' tough!

Dan

 

[FN FAL]

even if you're just dreaming this web site is for you...

http://www.aviationconsumer.com/airplanereviews/

As a piston twin owner in a previous life, I can only recomend this service as money well spent.

 

[Loafman]

Did an Aero Commander ever cross your mind? The best handling airplane I've ever flown.

Ditto. Best plane I ever owned. Just find someone knowledgeable on the model you choose.

 

[Gulfstreamlover]

I fly a 560E every once in a while and love it. Very stable and a great platform for IFR work. One of the nicestest sounding airplanes too (not including radials).

 

[HueyPilot]

More

So what kind of income should I need to operate a Part 91 twin?

Thanks to those who've replied.

 

[Gulfstreamlover]

Depends what kind. A 421 or AC560 have a low TBO time (geared engines) and the 421 is just an expensive airplane over all. How much do you want to spend on the initial purchase? 421's can go for $500,000, while Navajo's can go for as low as 80,000. All depends on what you want.

 

[HueyPilot]

More...

Let's just say that after the military, I plan on trying to get my foot in the door with a major airline. In the meantime I'm going to try ownership with a single (PA28 or something similar). I'd be willing to go into a partnership to make it affordable.

I have no idea how much income I'd have, but as of now, retirement shouldn't be a problem (mil retirement, civilian retirement, IRAs, other investments), and I'm not real big into other toys like boats and fast cars.

I have an uncle at UPS who keeps telling me he'd be willing to help get me on when I get out of the military and when they start hiring again, but as you know that's just an "IF".

I plan on doing alot of travel on my own in the future...I have a wife and two boys, we like to go places. I fly Learjets now...wish I could have something like that, but obviously that's a bit out of my league. But I would like to dream of having a cabin-class airplane with two motors, de-ice and wx radar capability...a big plus for me.

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

I've got some friend in the military who were faced with the same problem you have. Specifically, they've been flying helicopters for a long time, but didn't have any airplane time.

Two of them went partners on an older 310, got thier commercial, multi, instrument ratings in it, and fly it to build time/travel with the family. They do as much of the maintenance as they can themselves, and they got it pretty cheap (but paid a lot more to get the plane up to snuff), but they manage.

Personally, If I were going to buy an airplane for building time for airlines and whatnot (if I didn't already have a "competitive" amount of multi time), I'd get a light twin. Twin Commanche would be at the top of that list, followed perhaps by a Duchess, Travel Air, then Aztecs, etc... I just don't think I could justify paying money to go so slow as an Apache does, or a Seneca I for that matter.

But if you've got enough multi time for what you want (for me it would probalby be regionals, but that's a bit button down for some of us), a single would be a less expensive way to own an airplane.

I've figured out that I could own a light twin if I made 24K a year (and that's myself, no partners), but I am the chepasest living guy on the face of the planet. I highly doubt that there exists an equal when it comes to my thriftiess

Dan

 

[jettypeguy]

Re: More...

I have an uncle at UPS who keeps telling me he'd be willing to help get me on when I get out of the military and when they start hiring again, but as you know that's just an "IF".

Hate to be the one to bust your bubble but if your uncle is a UPS employee at any capacity/position you are disqualified from being hired as a pilot due to the Nepotism policy in place at UPS. I know this for fact as my uncle works there and I've gone as far as talking to hiring department about this. It sucks I know.

 

[Gulfstreamlover]

Don't get your hopes up about UPS, my nieghbor has been in the hiring pool with 'em sence 9-5-01. Jettypeguy, can't he get on after his uncle retires.

 

[HueyPilot]

UPS

Considering he's 54...he'll probably be retired by then. I didn't know about the nepotism policy...for that matter, I don't know if HE knows about it either since he's mentioned the possibility of me working there...that sucks. So only one UPS pilot per family? That's insane.

 

[HueyPilot]

More on UPS

I did a little digging about UPS....my uncle's blood-related first cousin can get a job at UPS, but even though he's not blood-related to me, I can't get a job there. Sucks.

 

[BrokeAssPilot]

"Uncle?, What uncle I don't know this guy!"

 

[sky37d]

Re: More...

I plan on doing alot of travel on my own in the future...I have a wife and two boys, we like to go places. I fly Learjets now...wish I could have something like that, but obviously that's a bit out of my league. But I would like to dream of having a cabin-class airplane with two motors, de-ice and wx radar capability...a big plus for me.

My skymaster has all that, and including the new engine, we paid $60K when we bought it. Radar on 337's is rare, but having flown with radar and boots, I would never fly without them. We have 1500# useful load, old avionics.