Anyone attend law school?

[merikeyegro]

I've had enough of my constant rants about rights and government and my general enmity for the TSA. I've decided to, once and for all, give up the quest for the airline job and go to law school. It fits my personality to a "T" and I know I'd be darn good at it. I'm already on the way with my being a Union steward and secretary, and ACLU member, and one hell of an arguer...

...Now, that being said, my grades from my undergraduate education were not exactly stellar. I received a BS in an engineering field, finishing with a 2.92 GPA (4.0 scale). Worked my rear off trying to get "C"s in a few materials, linear algebra, and dynamics classes. I kicked butt in PoliSci classes and know that some of the kids in those classes got into law school and I could have followed suit with their grades (in PoliSci). I have yet to take the LSAT. Don't know how I'll do. I know I'll do well in grad school, as I'm already pulling "A"s in my MBA program. This opportunity has really lit a fire under my butt...So, anyone know how well I'll have to do on the LSAT to get into a middle-of-the-road law school? Obviously, the big dogs are out of my range, but I know that with a good essay and recommendations I could get in. Only problem is that I have no idea how this whole LSAT will work out. Looks pretty tough. I take tests well, but this one will have the added pressure of making up for mediocre grades.

So, anyone have any words of wisdom, encouragement, or doom? Please let me know. This was a HUGE decision for me. Flying is wonderful, just not my calling. I'll continue to fly, but not for a living. Any help is appreciated. Thanks much.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

160 on LSAT will get you most anywhere, just get 10-12 past LSAT tests from a couple of years back and study them. This will let you see how they work, as you can't really study for this test (its not like GMATs or MCATs)
Tests are available through LSAT's home page, and I think your professional exp. will more than make up for GPA. Commitees are looking for diversity among their ranks, so an engineering pilot should fit the bill

 

[Typhoon1244]

...being a Union steward and secretary, and ACLU member...

Jesus, man! Is this flame bait? Look out...here come bart, Timebuilder, and flywithastick!

But seriously, good luck to you. I don't have any practical advice to offer, but it's gotta take some serious stones to make a career move like that! I don't think I could do it, no matter how much I hate the TSA!

 

[2LT]

Been where you're at...

I was in the middle of applying to law schools in the Minneapolis/Saint Paul, MN area before taking my present run in Minot, ND. My reasoning: getting to a 121 carrier is more age dependent than is law school. I can, however, understand where you're coming from.

All ABA approved law schools require you to register with the LSDAS [Law School Data Assembly Service]. This 'service' compiles all of your undergraduate grades and provides you with a corrected/standardized GPA. This GPA, along with your LSAT score, gives most schools all they need to arrive at your index number. Bottom line: ASSUMING the LSDAS deems your GPA 2.92, and you've some idea on how you're going to score on the LSAT [150 is the mean] you can go to: www.lsac.org and click on the ABA LSAC official guide on the bottom of the page. From there, you can search all ABA approved law schools for whatever parameters you wish. One warning: if you've ever retaken/dropped courses for whatever reason and they appear on your transcript -- they will be computed by the LSDAS. Additionally, any courses taken after your undergraduate degree was earned are not eligible for computation. Now, most schools aren't this 'hard-lined' and they've the attitude that most people change over time and all that. I.e., they'll look at those types of things as an indication of maturity, etc.

So, first things first. Go to lsac.org, register and have your transcripts sent. You'll get a Master Law School Report with your corrected GPA. Mine went from a 3.83 to a 3.53...eesh. Then, DON'T be daunted by the LSAT. Check out: www.powerscore.com for tips/help on taking the test. I started testing out at around the 150 range...with some careful, disciplined study I could score in the 160's. And, believe me, I was intimidated by the test as well.

Feel free to PM if you want...best of luck to ya.' I think you're making a good choice...that first year is a doozy from what I hear!!

Regards...

 

[Swass]

Just what the country needs, another frickin' lawyer.

 

[Mevans]

The above listed posts answer your questions about the application prcoess. I can answer your other thoughts. I graduated law school in 1991. I practiced here in Florida from then until 2000 when I left the practice. I do not plan on returning. I went to law school for the wrong reasons. Given that, make sure you go to law school for the right reasons. I came out with about $35,000 in loans. That is small compared to today, unless you get into a state school, which are more competitive. That is a bunch of money to spend to later leave the profession. I say that because the practice of law has an extremely high rate of people who leave. Out of my graduating class of 210, probably 50 (including me) are in some profession other than the law. Law school will, in large part, teach a methodology of thinking. It gives you skills which are suited to taking large amounts of information, prioritizing, and using the information with an attention to detail. Law school teaches you to think "big picture" all the time. The day in day out job, is by and large, very adviserial, very stressful. Pay is average, median salary in Florida is about $80,000. Sure, I know a lawyer who makes about $750,000 a year, I also know better than 10 who average $35,000. If you are serious, find a lawyer and talk to him about his job, (do not talk to law students) My wife is a lawyer also, she loves it and does very well, she took over a family practice that was established, and she enjoys her work. I did not enjoy it. Go to law school because you are sure you want to be a lawyer, or you enjoy education for education's sake, a law degree is very valuable, and develops some valuable skills, but it is expensive. The job is not very portable. Very few states have bar exam reciprocity, meaning if you want to move, a new bar exam. Most bar exams are about $1000 a whack once the fees are paid. It is also very difficult to changes areas of specialties, meaning lets say your first job out of law school is in real estate law. Ten years later you decide to practice corporate law, you basically start all over again. In case you are curious, highest paying is corporate/transactional, next is financial specialty type practices, (tax, CPA stuff) near the bottom, you have domestic, criminal , and PI (personal injury). In case you are curious, I became a police officer when I left, people keep telling me I did it backwards. Feel free to pm me if you have any other questions.

 

[2LT]

Just an aside...

I've heard that same sort of story only w/ a couple of different variations. In my case, I was lucky in that the Twin Cities has a couple of dedicated law schools that cater to the 'working adult' types. Not knowing whether I would 'wash out' the first year or not, I wanted the lifeline my flying job provided. Unfortunately, the vast majority of law schools don't provide for part-time students; or, if they do, it's very limited at best. From what I've seen anyhow...

Mevans: did you ever give any thought to aviation consulting type jobs? Just curious, seems that there are a smattering of those around. Or, just wanted the hell out?

 

[Mevans]

You are correct, there are more part time law schools now, when I went the ABA did not allow part time study so they were non existant. I thought about other aviation style consulting type stuff, but it required a mobility and I was not willing to relocate. I enjoy police work, and I am getting my rotor rating now, and can probably get into a law enforcement aviation unit at some point. But basically, I wanted the hell out, my wife says I am much easier to live with now.

 

[bart]

...being a Union steward and secretary, and ACLU member...

Jesus, man! Is this flame bait? Look out...here come bart, Timebuilder, and flywithastick!

Why bother, some patients arrive to far gone to save...

this is one of them.

Why not go into sales or business or something else that creates value or a good or service that helps someone. The only thing lawyers do is create work for their buddy across the street.

File a lawsuit and who gets rich?

The attorneys for both sides.

 

[88_MALIBU]

Hey what a question
I am taking the LSAT this Saturday!

 

[Huck]

Cumberland Law School (Samford University), class of 1994 (what I did during the LAST airline slump). Wrote for Trial Journal. Did a little moot court and mock trials. Tried to slant my electives to the business and tax side of the house.

As my application process was during the last Bush presidency, I don't think I can be of much help, other than to point out that engineers are looked at favorably - I got my clerking job before I even started 1L - worked for the biggest aviation lawyer in Alabama on crash cases.

All I can say is - law is an even more consuming and brutal field than flying. And they both require a high level of devotion. Those that prosper in either flying or law are born to do it, and can't really explain it to other (i.e. normal) people. I made my choice, and thank God every day I did.

I had an ALPA lawyer once tell me he couldn't believe the working conditions and low pay of regional pilots. I was quick to tell him - the only place that treated me and paid me worse than the regionals was clerking for a law firm!

 

[merikeyegro]

...

None of this is news to me. I expect to work my butt off, deal with a$$holes day in and out, read a bunch, get stressed out, get treated like crap right away, etc...

...that being said, I feel (finally, after 4 years of college, 3.5 of flying) that this is my calling. I argue, get myself in trouble, research facts, participate in the union, and am passionate about the Constitution. I feed on stress and frustration. I love solving problems and helping people. I can't tell you the number of people that have told me that I need to do something like this where I can use my abilities more completely. I'm bound to step on my d!ck in this flying job at one point or another. I love flying and will miss it, but I won't feel like I'm selling myself short. I have sort of dreaded getting to my final destination airline/company and never having another issue to solve the rest of my life aside from the occasional in-flight problem (I've had 1 in 3,000 hours of piston flying). If I go to the airlines, I'll inevitably be the Union steward the airline just can't wait to can...So, this is what I need to do.

I could see where law school would be AWFUL for someone who just did it because there was nothing else to do. I'd be leaving a steady job in aviation to do it, so this is nothing I NEED to do. It's something I WANT to do...Glad I finally figured it out...

 

[Mevans]

Huck;

Small world, I was Cumberland Class of 91, my wife was class of 89.

 

[LAPD Airship]

There are 4 tiers of law schools. LSAT + Grades are a must to get into a decent one. Since you say you lack the grades, the LSAT you must do AWESOME on...and I mean, 170+.

I am in law school currently in NYC, and I absolutely love it. Flying is great, but the mental challenge, is well, completely lacking.

I did it to challenge myself, as well as protect myself in the future for what I see to be a very dangerous industry (aviation).

I am in a good law school, so the jobs will always be there. I don't mind working, and love litigation and the challenges and skill required in it. I just like to have choices.

Undergraduate degrees can come from anywhere, but graduate degrees are very much a different ball game - the school does matter.

If you want to make any money, kick ass on the LSAT, and go to the best school you can get into - even if you have to go into debt to do it.

Hope this helps.
Best of luck,

1L - New York University (NYU) School of Law

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/gr...wrank_brief.php

 

[merikeyegro]

law school

I've checked out a bunch of schools on www.lsac.org and have seen the grids for admission. I've got the odds stacked against me, but by no means is it hopeless. It's actually better than I thought, and personal essays can only help. I have a lot of experience to go by and my 2.92 GPA is indicative of a grueling aerospace engineering curriculum completed in 4 years (wanted to get out and fly ). If I could score a 170+ on the LSAT, I'd be golden. I'm going to head home today and take one of the practice tests from Kaplan just to get a baseline. I'm a little tired today and have not even opened the book, so I'd like to just see how I do cold turkey. It can only go up from there.

I've scored somewhere around 75-80% of the max on all standardized tests I've taken to this point (SAT - 1340 [84%], ACT - 30 [80%], GMAT - 590 [73% - didn't study as much, knew I had to get only a 450]), so I'm kinda curious how I'll do here. I know I'm going to need to study a bunch and maybe even take a course (friggin' expensive, if you ask me, but likely worth it). I have nothing but time, however, as the wife isn't going to be able to move for over a year. I'm looking at Fall '05. So, study time it is.

Thanks for all the help so far, guys...You've been great...

 

[novots]

I'm a senior undergrad right now working toward my degree in aviation. I plan to attend law school and will take the LSAT next semester.
I'm a CFI and have maintained a good GPA. Like many others on this post, I just want to have choices down the road. Who knows...I still may end up pursuing an airline career as I will only be 26 or so when I get out.
As for reviewing for the test, it seems to get much easier as more problems are worked. The biggest challenge for me is the time limit for each section. For those of you considering shelling out $$ for review courses....I've heard from a lot of law students that quite a bit of time and money can be saved by studying on your own. The only real advantage in those courses seems to be for those that have a tough time studying on their own. Who knows though.....
Although I would love to go to a top 50 law school, my only concern is how admissions will look at an undergraduate degree in aviation. I'm not sure they will look favorable on such a technical degree. Does anyone have any insight as to how they view applicants with non-traditional bachelors? Also, any thoughts on how to incorporate an aviation background into the application essay would be appreciated. Thanks!!

 

[LAPD Airship]

I'm a senior undergrad right now working toward my degree in aviation. I plan to attend law school and will take the LSAT next semester.
I'm a CFI and have maintained a good GPA. Like many others on this post, I just want to have choices down the road. Who knows...I still may end up pursuing an airline career as I will only be 26 or so when I get out.
As for reviewing for the test, it seems to get much easier as more problems are worked. The biggest challenge for me is the time limit for each section. For those of you considering shelling out $$ for review courses....I've heard from a lot of law students that quite a bit of time and money can be saved by studying on your own. The only real advantage in those courses seems to be for those that have a tough time studying on their own. Who knows though.....
Although I would love to go to a top 50 law school, my only concern is how admissions will look at an undergraduate degree in aviation. I'm not sure they will look favorable on such a technical degree. Does anyone have any insight as to how they view applicants with non-traditional bachelors? Also, any thoughts on how to incorporate an aviation background into the application essay would be appreciated. Thanks!!

I have no idea how admissions counselors look at aviation degrees, I attended a traditional university with traditional curriculum not specializing in anything specific like aviation (why are you getting a degree in aviation anyway?).

Law School Admissions, at all levels want students who can add to their school and to the legal world thereafter with that degree with their name on it on your office wall.

Schools take into account all aspects of your curriculum vitae: undergraduate grades, activities, LSAT, essays, RECOMMENDATIONS, alumni status (i.e. parents were grads), etc.

I didn’t put crap about aviation into my essays so I have no idea how to incorporate that since I don’t know what the subject of the essay at the school you are applying to requests.

So many variables – best of luck.