Anybody fly Helis after getting ASEL ?

[squale]

Just wondering what ther requirements are to get a Private Helicopter license AFTER you get your Private Airplane License?

Do you have to go through ALL the same training again? things like Weather, Airport/Airspace, Navigation, Radios, etc. I would imagine would all be the same with Heli's as it was with your ASEL training.

So I am just wondering how hard it is to get a Private Heli license once you get your Airplane license? which is harder to fly? and how many hours does it generally take a transitioning Airplane to Heli pilot in order to get your license?

Thanks

 

[414Flyer]

You can add on your commercial helicopter legally in 50 hours of training, as long as you have 150 hours TT when you take your checkride.

 

[squale]

I'm not really concerned with Commerical Heli, just Private Heli, how much does that take?

by the way, I know that my PPL training right now for airplanes is called "primary" training, does this mean that any ratings or certifications I get in the future are just "add-on's" to this PPL license?

sort of like getting a drivers license and then getting a "boat" endorsment, or a "motorcycle" endoresment?

so is Heli just an add-on, or is it a "Primary" license just like an airplane private license is?

 

[KigAir]

I looked into doing this and found that it is not a quick addon like a multi rating. You have to go through all the training with the exception of taking the private written. Also, if you will be learning in a Robinson there are additional requirements. Check out the FAR, there is a SFAR concerning this.

 

[squale]

are there any hopes of ever owning your own R22 or R44, I just don't know about how much these cost to buy and maintain in relation to like a C-172 ?

it would be nice to be able to just take off from your yard though.. can't really do that with a Cessna.. lol so you get to save on hanger and tie-down fees

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Hangar and tiedown fees are nothing compared to the cost of running a helicopter.

 

[squale]

why is the cost of owning and operating a Heli more than it is for a plane?

if so, why?

 

[414Flyer]

I believe many of the parts are replaced at certain hour limits, regardless of condition.

Also I think the Robinsons are completely overhauled at 2,000 hours. Its crated up and shipped back to the factory. I think in 99 the cost for an R22 was around 80,000 to overhaul.

But I am not a helo driver, and there are a few here that are, so they would be a better authority

 

[great cornholio]

I am adding Private Pilot Helo Privs to my Commercial Airplane right now. Its alot of fun. The helo is a lot harder to fly than airplanes. I dont know how much it costs to own or operate one because as a regional F/O I don't even make close to enough money to worry about buying one anytime in the next 100 years. Anyways you need 30 hours total. 20 hours of dual training and 10 hours of solo training. And 10 hours of ground training. You need to do some cross countries in helos, the ground training is about the same, excpet for helo aerodynamics are alot different. According to the instructors at my school most people need about 50 hours of flight time to be able to pass the checkride. Also if you do the training in the R 22 like I am then by FAR's you need 20 hours in the R22 before you can legally solo. And there are some other limitations for the first 200 hours after you get your rating. Hope this helps.

 

[squale]

wow what makes the R-22 so special that you need these extra hours for before solo?

 

[squale]

oh and if you don't mind me asking, what are the rental and instructor fees and what area are you from?

thanks

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

A helicopter is totally different from an airplane. The weather, radio procedures, and basic aerodynamics translate over but little else does.

From what I have heard, $150 per hour is about average for helicopter cost. At that point, you can do multi training in an airplane at about the same cost.

It costs more because there are more parts and they need to be more fault resistant (I guess there are times when everything needs to be redone too if what someone else said here is correct). You have 2 'props' (tail and overhead rotor). Also, they need to be more fault resistant because you become a rock if they fail (an airplane turns into a badly designed glider if the engine dies). The engine needs to be more powerful (and thus more expensive).

PS: Squale, you have 2 hrs in ASEL. Don't you think you are counting your chickens before they hatch?

 

[mudkow60]

$!50/hr? Where? Helos are really expensive to rent or own because of maintance costs (lots of rotating parts) AND insurance fees. But, if you have the money, I highly recommend it.

FYI I looked into renting a Jet Ranger, and the cost was $500/hr dry! I read of a guy in SoCal that was splitting time in his for about 150 to 200 an hour.

Another route is the military or Coast Guard, but that is another discussion in and of itself.

Good luck.

 

[Mevans]

I am just about to finish up my rotorcraft rating in an R-22. It is very challenging flying. The learning curve is very steep, but I was able to solo at about 21 hours and I will do my flight test in the next month or so at about 35 hours total. I have about 135 hours SEL. I pay about 185 per hour for a R-22, very nice birds, brand new, Garmin 430's etc.. $35 per hour for the CFI. My FBo will allow me to rent them solo after I get my ticket, which is rare. No passengers until 50 hours solo R-22, that is his insurance requirement, not a Robinson requirement. There is a special FAR, SFAR 73-1 which requires Robinson "awareness" training before solo. It is mainly oral to make sure 1) you never let go of the cyclic because it will roll over right now, and 2) a power loss requires you enter autorotation in about two seconds or you will stall the blades and become a rock. The rating (as an add on) mostly involves pattern work, steep and normal approaches, emergency procedures, (autorotations, settling with power, hover autos, dynamic rollover), and the differences in the regs for rotorcraft, (different visibility requirements for VFR, etc.) It is, however, absolutely, positively, the most fun flying ever.

 

[weekendwarrior]

If you want cheap flying, get a Rotorway. www.rotorway.com. You can build one for about $60k last time I checked. You can buy one for less than that. If you build one, Rotorway will help you get your rotorcraft rating at their facility.

They have by far the best safety record of any kit helicopter. They dominate the homebuilt helo market as well. Very slick machine for the money.

Owning any other kind of helicopter is just about financially insane, imho. At least with a kit aircraft, you can do your own annual condition inspection and maintenance.

Be prepared for a whole new dimension in aerodynamics. Aside from Bernullis principle and airfoil shapes, I found aerodymics quite different. There are many more factors that occur in rotor flight. I won't go into them here, because they are better explained here:

http://www.dynamicflight.com/aerodynamics/

Being fixed wing before helo, I had to adjust my aerodynamic thinking a little!

 

[great cornholio]

I pay 175 per hour for the helo and 35 for the CFI. The R22 has those crazy requirements because they are realtively cheap to own and operate and a lot of people were getting them and a lot of people were crashing them and getting killed. The FAA decided in 1995 that letting a lot of people die is not good so they made a SFAR that said if you fly a Robbie you need special training. For things such as mast bumping, and blade stall, etc. And thats in the Northern VA / Washington DC area.

Weekendwarrior....That was an awesome link man I'll have to dick around with that some more looks like lots of good info on there. That stupid loss of tail rotor effectiveness always leads to good fun Especially when its run-on landing day.

 

[CStricker]

Also, they need to be more fault resistant because you become a rock if they fail (an airplane turns into a badly designed glider if the engine dies). The engine needs to be more powerful (and thus more expensive).

Jedi_Cheese,
Not necessarily true. If your engine fails you can autorotate, assuming you catch the engine failure quick enough.

Also, the engine in a R22B is a Lycoming O-320, same as some of the Cessna 172s I fly.

To answer the original poster, helicopters are so much fun to fly! I started my helicopter add-on the day after I past my Private Airplane checkride. Took me about 40 hours, but it was a gigantic B when my club told me that I needed 75 hours in a R22 before I could take up passengers. D'oh! I figured with the extra 35 hours I might as well get my Commercial rating, which I did. I pay $175/hour (a little more now because of the rise in fuel prices) and the CFI is $45. Good luck buddy.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Jedi_Cheese,
Not necessarily true. If your engine fails you can autorotate, assuming you catch the engine failure quick enough.

True, but I have always heard that autorotate only allows you to make a controlled landing (you essentially flare the aircraft in a manner of speaking). You don't get much in the way of gliding distance (unlike a small aircraft that can glide a few miles from cruise altitude).

 

[squale]

wow, more Heli pilots than I thought here... anybody every fly Ultralight Heli's or have any opinions on them? saying you did own your own Heli, whether it be an R-22, an ultralight, etc., could you legally land and takeoff from your backyard?

or are there FARs that state you have to be a specific distance away from other houses, etc to do this? or you might have to be at a heliport, etc...?

yeah the more I look into these, it's pretty much IMPOSSIBLE for me to ever own my own, but the ultralight Helis could be a good alternative... but.. again, I don't know how safe they are that's why I am asking...

by the way, you guys all say helis are soo much more fun to fly than planes, why is that?

 

[great cornholio]

I don't know anything about the ultralight helos at all so sorry I can't help ya there. Anyways as far as I know and I could be wrong you can takeoff and land your helo anywhere you want to as long as you have prior permission from the land owner. Also I've heard that some towns may have laws that limit where you could land the helo off airport. Anyways the reason we all say that helos are so much more fun that planes are because it just is. Its like comparing apples to oranges. In a helo you can fly sideways and backwards all that fun stuff that is just not possible in a plane.

Jedi...Yeah helos dont really glide all that far. From what I've seen with my autorotations the R-22 has around 1/4 to 1/2 the glide distance of a GA aircraft. You need to keep forward speed in order to keep the rotor RPM up enough to prevent that blade stall. So we usually glide at around 70 kts and a VS of 1500 - 2000 FPM descent. The flare at the bottom of the auto is used to reduce the groundspeed to zero just a few feet above ground. Then you raise the collective to slow the rate of descent so you have a nice soft touchdown.

 

[Timebuilder]

I was just poking around on the Rotorway site, and I'm trying to find out what kind of engine they use.

They talk a lot about FADEC, which is fine, but who is the manufacturer of the powerplant? Is there a separate site that has info on it?

 

[flyboycpa]

I was just poking around on the Rotorway site, and I'm trying to find out what kind of engine they use.

They talk a lot about FADEC, which is fine, but who is the manufacturer of the powerplant? Is there a separate site that has info on it?

Actually, Rotorway produces their own engines in-house. They are a fabulous engine that have proven to be extremely reliable. They don't typically advertise the fact, but the engine was originally conceived and derived from a Porsche engine (no kidding).

Now, as WeekendWarrior stated earlier, if you have the Rotorway, they will train you at their facility; however, the VAST majority of the accidents in Rotorways have been attributed to this training philosophy. What they do is have you come out to Chandler, AZ to their facility, and for a few hours you learn to hover, then you are sent home to hover your helicopter a certain number of hours. Then you return to AZ to spend a few hours doing other maneuvers and go home to practice solo in your Rotorway. Then go back and do autorotations in theirs, go home practice in yours.......you get the idea.

There have been numerous accidents in Rotorways with students banging up their machines while "at home" soloing.

The Rotorway has the absolute best safety record in the homebuilt industry, but it is a vastly different machine to learn in and fly from an R-22 or Schweizer 269/300.

Those who have been successfully flying Rotorways for a long time strongly advocate getting your rating the traditional way (in an R-22 or Schweizer) and then transitioning into the Rotorway.

BTW, get the aftermarket belt upgrade and ditch the chain drive that connects the engine/clutch/transmission. Rotorway hates the aftermarket stuff, but the belt system is FAR superior!

hope some of this might help,
flyboycpa

 

[flyboycpa]

Just wondering what ther requirements are to get a Private Helicopter license AFTER you get your Private Airplane License?

Do you have to go through ALL the same training again? things like Weather, Airport/Airspace, Navigation, Radios, etc. I would imagine would all be the same with Heli's as it was with your ASEL training.

So I am just wondering how hard it is to get a Private Heli license once you get your Airplane license? which is harder to fly? and how many hours does it generally take a transitioning Airplane to Heli pilot in order to get your license?

Thanks

I forgot to answer this question in my last post so here goes..

If you look at the Practical Test Standards for the Private Pilot-Rotorcraft-Helicopter certificate, you will see on around p.20 (there's 91 pages total) a graph which states the required "Tasks" to be performed and those that are not required depending on what certificates/ratings you already possess. Here's the link to the FAA site for the Adobe Acrobat version of the PTS.

http://av-info.faa.gov/data/practicalteststandard/faa-s-8081-15.pdf

flyboycpa

 

[squale]

you know quick a bit about this Rotorway...

Hey I found this link which has other homebuilts as well... I think a couple of these even qualify as "ultralight" machines too...
http://www.helis.com/types/comultra.php

I have heard good things about the "Baby Belle" and the "Ultrasport" models. Plus they are much cheaper than the Rotorway, and I believe a little smaller. What is your opinion on these models of Helis?

Just wondering what it is that makes the Rotorway such a safer machine with the least amount of accidents..

 

[FracCapt]

If you want cheap flying, get a Rotorway. www.rotorway.com. You can build one for about $60k last time I checked. You can buy one for less than that. If you build one, Rotorway will help you get your rotorcraft rating at their facility.

They have by far the best safety record of any kit helicopter. They dominate the homebuilt helo market as well. Very slick machine for the money.

The Rotorway is an impressive helicopter....I seriously considered one myself...but then I flew it. Well, let me elaborate on that statement. With two people and full fuel, we took off out of the owners back yard(owns a small ranch in central Florida). The aircraft is very balanced, easy to fly, and sporty. Immediately I was able to keep it in a dead hover with extremely little work. Pedal turns were smooth, and it had plenty of power. We took off and flew around the area, and even did a practice auto(to a power recovery). The Exec autos are much easier than an R22 - and quite similar to that of a 300C, in terms of available rotor inertia. After playing around for 45 mins, it was time to return. I made a normal approach, and when slowing through ETL noticed I needed quite a bit of pedal...much more than when hovering. When I brought it to a hover, I ran out of pedal. Before the turn really started to develop, I set it down(a bit firm, but better than letting the turn rate increase). The owner stated that he had seen the same LTE once before....and the belts that drive the tail rotor were "slipping a bit". We found a little bit of an oily substance on the belts(not motor oil, not trans fluid..we couldn't identify it). I was a bit weary of the whole system with belts driving the tail rotor...and it turned out, rightfully so.

I'm told they now have a different belt/tensioner system on the ships coming out of the factory...but it still bothers me. As soon as they go to a tail rotor drive shaft in lieu of a belt system for the tail rotor, I'll be looking at the Rotorway again. That is the only thing with that aircraft I really have a problem with. Oh, and now there is a guy doing turbine conversions on them as well...

 

[flying_gringo]

I did my helo add on, and I was an ATP at the time... I think there were some things that are more difficult having the fixed wing mindset. Actions that must be unlearned. Yes there are a ton of things that are the same - but it's still a chunk of change. I think all said and done - my R22 rating was around $12,000 for my private, and that was at TOA where they build the things.

As far as safety following an engine failure - I feel that with a well trained pilot, the helo can't be beat - yes the glide distance is much smaller then in fixed wing aircraft, but so is the distance required to land it. Over the city in a fixed wing single you could land in an empty parking lot, but in a helo - you could land in an empty parking space.

Not to dis the kit helicopters - but wasn't the Rotorway the one to have two engine failures with the reporter from plane and pilot when he came out to do a review on them? Has their quality improved since? I don't doubt that kit manufacturers could turn out reliable products - I just don't know enough to argue either way with rotorway.

They do look pretty however, and some are completed very nicely.
I believe its a rotorway on that "chopper is born" series - and from what I saw the kit looks well put together.


fg

 

[flyboycpa]

you know quick a bit about this Rotorway...

Hey I found this link which has other homebuilts as well... I think a couple of these even qualify as "ultralight" machines too...
http://www.helis.com/types/comultra.php

I have heard good things about the "Baby Belle" and the "Ultrasport" models. Plus they are much cheaper than the Rotorway, and I believe a little smaller. What is your opinion on these models of Helis?

Just wondering what it is that makes the Rotorway such a safer machine with the least amount of accidents..

I took a close look at the Safari (formerly called Baby Belle) and it appears to be a great machine. The latest is a 180hp version that is quite powerful, supposedly. I sat inside the Safari, and it is very roomy but hot with that bubble. I was impressed with the quality of what I saw, and I've heard good results from some builders.

Regarding the Ultrasport, I really don't know anything about them, but I stick by the mantra, "Friends don't let friends fly two-strokes, especially, when they are connected to rotors."

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