Any word on the C560 that crashed in Carlsbad?

[falcon20driver]

That's what makes this accident so interesting. Everyone talks about what great pilots these guys were, by the book all the time, etc, but from what data is known, that was not the case here, and who knows the reason why. There are only 2 possible scenarios here. I have not seen the CVR data:

1) They had an emergency they did not tell ATC about requiring they get on the ground ASAP
2) The F#ucked up

As for the TAWS: Lets not forget that the TAWS does not always work like it should. I think there have been instances when we have all been surprised to hear the TAWS go off on nice VMC days when all is normal. Some systems are a bit more sensitive than others, and especially when doing visual approaches with the LOC tuned it, you drop a little below the G/S (1/2 dot) so you dont eat up 1000ft of pavement or you manuver off the G/S and onto the VASI, that thing can start going nuts.
The airport is at 331 MSL. The radar will work well below 1000 AGL. The aircraft was at 200+Knots across the ground at 300ft according to the flightaware program the day of the crash. Looking up other aircraft that same day going to the same airport, their speeds all appeared normal, so I don't think the radar broke when they came into land, then fixed itself after the airport reopened. If conditions are normal (A/C is operating normally) and that is your G/S at 300ft you should not attempt to land in an aircraft that has REF speeds 70-100 Knots slower than what you are flying going into a 4600ft strip! Even with no G/S readout, the rate of decent required to maintain the Glideslope and/or VASI (1000FPM as opposed to 570FPM) would have been a big clue that something is not on the up and up.

Here is a return from a C560 (N68CK) tonight that went into this same airport and it is the same type of aircraft. The data is accurate for this type of aircraft.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N68CK/tracklog
That is a link for the same type of aircraft that had the accident. It flew into CRQ tonight, and the link will be good for 24Hours as long as it does not take off again. At 900ft (600 AGL) the speed is 112. At 1500 feet they were down to 138.

That 300' and 227 groundspeed is not on final, it's while they're smashing into the building. Field elevation is 331' and those altitudes are radar which are MSL, if you plot the coordinates it is southwest of the field 1 mile.

Radar info from the FAA, the coordinates are next to the speed/altitude on http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N86CE/tracklog

09:33AM 33 12N 117 00W 295 10000'
09:34AM 33 10N 117 04W 314 8100'
09:34AM 33 10N 117 05W 304 7100'
09:35AM 33 08N 117 09W 307 5600'
09:35AM 33 09N 117 11W 262 4100'
09:36AM 33 08N 117 15W 277 2300'
09:36AM 33 08N 117 15W 209 1200'
09:37AM 33 07N 117 18W 227 300'


Those coordinates show a 7 mile final at 4100' MSL (3800' AGL) and 262 kts groundspeed, a two mile final at 2300' MSL (2000' AGL) doing 277 kts over the ground, and a one mile final at 1200' MSL (900' AGL) doing 209 over the ground, and the next and last fix is at field elevation doing 227 kts over the ground a mile southwest of the field still on radar while they are crashing. Mighty smart to continue that approach, a mile final at 900' agl doing 200 knots on a 4000' runway, what were they thinking.

Enter the above coordinates in the site below and it shows the picture of where they were.
http://map.aeroplanner.com/mapping/chart/smartchart.cfm

 

[Going2Baja]

I've talked personally to two people that were on the radio and one that saw the crash. One in the air departing CRQ said he heard ATC ask if they wanted a few turns to get down as they were 10k at 7 nm and they said "nope - field in sight, C-ya" The other was a Brasilia on the ground that heard the traffic call and the GPWS in the background and he watched them fly past at an ungodly speed while they were holding short.
The CVR will be the answer - but it really looks like bad CRM/SOP Cowboy flying.

RIP guys.

Baja.

 

[100-1/2]

Sorry, hawker and falcon.

Apples and oranges when you step away from the kool-aid and look deeper into your links. Everyone is 10 times more cautious and conservative when going into an airport within days of an accident, fresh in and on our minds.

Also,
You cannot compare one C550 coming down out of flight levels and Mach against that of another in cruise at 10k and 250KIAS as they leave a groundtrack on flightaware.com. Also, notice: they were clearly approaching in close proximity to the primary (likely only) radar site. Flightaware data is compiled from the radar info from the sector responsible from the flight. It does not take into account other primary radar returns at other sites/sectors. As they got closer, they went from one radar sweep per minute to two in the final moments of the flights. Close to and down low near a single radar site is where the computers have the greatest trouble digesting the data and reporting GS and descent rates particularly when the speed is trasnsitioning. It is basic trig. The (dated) FAA computers rely upon multiple radar returns to collect and disseminate the most accurate data reported to a single sector. The NTSB will not be gathering their data from Flightaware.com There will be tapes from other radar sites likely revising this initial data considerably. Did you notice that twice a FL380 return was reported in the descent? Transponder or Radar? Who knows. Other radar tracks from preceding flights will represent a pattern of operation by the flight crew in that plane and address the "cowboy" claim.

I am not sure that I have defended these guys or agreed with the "stand-up" character of their skill or professionalism. I believe I have posed a potential for possible deferral of the prelanding checks and approach briefings or deviation from said procedures completely. Don't know that I know the crew or have ever met them. Can't say one way or the other as to their pilot types.

Here was an idea for the Brasilia crew. Key mike and repeatedly say, "GO AROUND"!!! The pax' front row seat to the fireball could have possibly been avoided?

100-1/2

 

[Going2Baja]

The crash was during a go-around then they hit the ILS. Call it what you want, they were hot & high WITH a tailwind! They easily could have entered left downwind for 6 and made the entire approach look planned and land with a headwind. Bad planning and poor CRM. They paid for it and now so do their families. RIP...Baja.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Here was an idea for the Brasilia crew. Key mike and repeatedly say, "GO AROUND"!!! The pax' front row seat to the fireball could have possibly been avoided?

100-1/2

Had the EMB-120 crew done that, they would have been listed as a mitigating factor to the accident by the NTSB. The airline would have gotten sued and the pilot(s) would be unemployed. They did the right thing by not getting involved.

A basic understanding of Theromodynamics and physics (high school level of understanding) would tell you that touching the brakes at a speed well above the tire speed limit is going to cause the brakes to fade quickly then failure of the entire system.

500 Series Citations are kittens, and when they are operating correctly (system wise), a pilot would really have to work to create a situation like the oe these guys created.

At the end of the day, this accident will be used for years as a great example of what not to do.

Finally 100-1/2, I know you said you have not vested interest in the outcome of this investigation, but are you really being honest with yourself about how these events played out?

 

[Microclimates]

Here was an idea for the Brasilia crew. Key mike and repeatedly say, "GO AROUND"!!! The pax' front row seat to the fireball could have possibly been avoided?

There's an Idea! From now on every time you see somebody doing something that is a little weird, yap long and hard on the radio to cause even more confusion! Not to mention that if the pax didn't hear the egpws yellin pullup, it's unlikely that they would hear a radio call leaking through the pilots' headsets...

maybe they were worried with getting ready for their own flight and didn't really think about second guessing another crew. it's not like the plane was approaching with the gear up or inverted... i'm guessing it's hard to estimate speed vref and all that for a plane you're not flying, don't you think?

Believe me if anyone had been able to foresee the disaster the radios would have been a mess with warning calls. RIP I hope it was quick enough