Any News On the Pinnacle CRJ Accident at MKE

[b82rez]

Pilot asked several times of the condition and IF they needed more time.

In the 5+ years of flying 121 ops based out of MKE, I have always known airport ops to be very conservative when it comes to rwy/taxiway clearing. They have no problem shutting down the airport, delaying departures and arrivals, if they feel that the rwy needs another sweep.

 

[dondk]

In the 5+ years of flying 121 ops based out of MKE, I have always known airport ops to be very conservative when it comes to rwy/taxiway clearing. They have no problem shutting down the airport, delaying departures and arrivals, if they feel that the rwy needs another sweep.

Don't shoot the messenger.. I am only repeating what I have heard is the statement from the pilot's of the aircraft. I am sure the NTSB will put the piece's together.

 

[Thunderchief]

I have to disagree with MKE ability to clear a runway. Yes they'll shut the airport down but when it reopens you're scratching your head trying to decide if the conditions are better or worse since the closing.

It is probably the worst airport for cleaning taxiways too...

If tower was pressuring pinnacle to turn off quickly (which they always do) that could have been a factor...Good luck to the pinnacle crew.

-TC

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

pressuring them to turn off the runway at >100kts?

There was nothing said to the pinnacle crew at all about turning off early whatsoever.

 

[beagle pilot]

I have never heard of any pilot for being violated for using the word "unable." On the other hand, I have heard of many pilots accepting a clearance or an ATC request and then being violated for either failure to comply or for being stupid (such as clearing a taxiway after a brake failure then ending up in the grass).

 

[Lear70]

I was flying Friday night and MKE got hit with something pretty bad conditions for a while. When we came in, they were using 19R at the time and some beechjet as he was turning off reported "braking action poor-to-nil" we were about a minute from touchdown and we're just like, "'poor-to-nil' still sounds like poor to me" and we landed. It was definitely slippery but it certainly wasn't "nil." IMHO if you go off the end of the runway, then call the braking "nil". If you are able to stop, then call the braking, "very poor" if you like but don't even risk shutting the airport down to all 121 and 135 traffic by using "nil" in any manner. The gut reaction that people have to "nil" even when they just hear it in "poor-to-nil" is pretty amazing. Even though everyone else who landed afterward reported "poor" the controller kept telling people it was "poor-to-nil."

No offense, but that's definintely NOT the way to go... I'm a little surprised no one else has chimed in yet about those statements.

If the braking action is "Nil", then call it "Nil", and f*ck the airport operations people. That's exactly WHY the "Nil" call exists which it sounds like for some periods of that evening WERE the conditions:

The runway was icy and I didnt use brakes until below 80 kts with TR's fully out untill 80. The brakes grabbed a little untill about 60 or so, but after that the brakes didnt do much to stop the plane. We were skidding along at about 50 with no intermittant "grabs" of the runway untill about 10-20.

That's called "Nil" folks, when the brakes are NOT working at the speeds designated by the manufacturer and the thrust reversers are doing all the work to get you slowed.

When you don't report it as such, you risk the airport NOT shutting down when it needs to be, and NOT properly taking care of the runway, then the right set of circumstances comes along and an accident happens. Probably the most assinine thing in the above statement was, "if you go off the end of the runway, then call the braking "nil". If YOU go off the end of the runway someday in a snowstorm and the previous aircraft "skidded all the way down the runway with the brakes not grabbing anything until below 10-20 kts", I bet you'd be a little pissed they didn't report it as "Nil" and have the airport come out to clean it.

This whole mentality of "don't shut the airport down" and "get-there-itis" is what gets people hurt or killed. Maybe we can think a little more about safety than mission completion and that comfy hotel bed (or home) at the end of that last leg...

Incidentally, I talked to our Safety Chair yesterday and there's lots of issues at play including the aircraft (mechanical), airport (erroneous runway condition report), and some other factors that I've been asked not to discuss in detail, but it sounds like NO ONE (from the crew to the folks in the SOC - especially MX Control) did their job correctly which doesn't exactly help us so soon after 3701.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I was flying Friday night and MKE got hit with something pretty bad conditions for a while. When we came in, they were using 19R at the time and some beechjet as he was turning off reported "braking action poor-to-nil" we were about a minute from touchdown and we're just like, "'poor-to-nil' still sounds like poor to me" and we landed. It was definitely slippery but it certainly wasn't "nil." IMHO if you go off the end of the runway, then call the braking "nil". If you are able to stop, then call the braking, "very poor" if you like but don't even risk shutting the airport down to all 121 and 135 traffic by using "nil" in any manner. The gut reaction that people have to "nil" even when they just hear it in "poor-to-nil" is pretty amazing. Even though everyone else who landed afterward reported "poor" the controller kept telling people it was "poor-to-nil."

WFFC

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0303.html

3-3-4. BRAKING ACTION
​

Furnish quality of braking action, as received from pilots or the airport management, to all aircraft as follows:
​

a. Describe the quality of braking action using the terms "good," "fair," "poor," "nil," or a combination of these terms. If the pilot or airport management reports braking action in other than the foregoing terms, ask him/her to categorize braking action in these terms.
​

NOTE-
The term "nil" is used to indicate bad or no braking action.

​

I don't think "very poor" is a choice. Not having been there, I think "bad or no braking action" (i.e. nil) might have saved Pinnacle from having to send the Go Team out again.

I know where you're coming from, but nil only if you go off the end of the runway? I hope that was tongue-in-cheek.

 

[Skybound737]

This is a tough call in a way beagle,

Im referring to the "UNABLE" statement. Sure, it's easy to say and in one case I know of recently would have been the best decision when an AWAC plane, in almost exactly the same scenario, went off the runway earlier this year. Northwest went into MSN and reported the conditions poor-to-nil...and ended up stating "well, I guess it's poor" after inquiry from the tower. I asked the red tail crew what the landing was like afterwards and they said the braking was "pretty much nil and needed full reverse until the end to get stopped and off the runway." AWAC was behind them a good distance and the airport had a chance to get out there and do whatever they do before they landed. I think they sprayed the runway down with de-ice chemical (maybe hot water...just kidding). When AWAC asked for the latest conditions they got a 'Fair' report. After landing they went off the end and through the ALS on RWY 36. What do you say in this scenario? They obviously got dealt a bad card in this deal. Trust in people who do their jobs when it comes to deicing the aircraft is the same as our trust in the airport to do their jobs with the runway. Unfortunately, someone has to be the first one to land after a runway sweep.

In January I was in MKE and it was snowing very heavy. Taxiways were almost unpassable (one aircraft got stuck and shut down the airport essentially because it was on the SMGS route and the only route to the active) and they were reporting braking action "Fair" on taxiways and the runway. I started asking questions like "When was the last braking action report submitted?". The response I got was "about 1.5 hours ago...." I think it had snowed at least 2 if not 3 inches in the last 1.5 hours. We were very heavy for the runway in use and we decided to say no thanks. An aborted takeoff would be very ugly and I just didn't trust the report. I had the benefit of observing for the last 1.5 hours though. Different case when you are coming in for landing.

When I hear "Fair" I now brief about use of brakes, TR's, and expect to use the whole runway to stop after landing. When landing I also ask about the time the last report of 'fair' was made and if there were previous reports of 'poor or nil' preceding runway maintenance.

 

[FlyinT]

Hope this all doesn't add up to training issues at Pinacle

 

[WillFlyFoCookie]

It certainly sounds like the weather/runway conditions were changing pretty rapidly that night. As far as reporting braking action, you just have to call it like you see it, just like a referee in any sport. If it's nil by your best determination...then definitely call it nil, that's the only way to do it. Any kind of PIREP is a very good tool to other pilots but relies heavily on the judgement of other pilots. People will not always interpret things the same way and airplanes have vastly different characteristics and ablilities. There are some things in aviation weather/conditions that are just random. Some airplanes will fly through an area of severe weather and not feel anything and others will get competely rocked through that same area. Quite a while back, a caravan that had passed through an area reported "severe icing" while I, in a similar aircraft and close to the same time observed "negative ice." So that controller had two PIREPs of the same area, altitude and virtually the same time: one said "severe" the other said "negative." Strange isn't it?

As far as this Pinnacle accident, 999 times out of 1000 with these same conditions and crew the landing might have been relatively uneventful but this one time they went off the runway. Maybe it's just fate. I love Ernest Gann's, "Fate is the Hunter." He proves that so many of the circumstances that were his saving grace or his friends' deaths were simply chocked up to fate. The important thing is that this particular flight turned out relatively ok. The relative safeness and routineness that we experience in air travel today would shock Ernest Gann I think.

 

[Donsa320]

Since I flew for 32 years up here in the tundra country, (so called by anyone from south of the Mason-Dixon line <grin>), for NOR, REP, and NWA I had a personal rule that from about September 1st until about May 1st I would assume braking action was ALWAYS poor and if it turned out to be better than that, fine.

My first month on the line as a new DC-9 Captain I got to go into Mankato, MN. In the winter. I don't know how much runway they have now but it was about 4500ft then. You learn quick to fly on the numbers and, as in a tailwheel airplane, you don't quit flying it until the chocks are in!

~DC

 

[saabservant]

Training issues....how about experience issues? I can't speak about anyone else's, but between receiving my comm. cert. and new-hire at a regional with 1500 hrs., I dodged enough bullets and learned from enough stupid moves and close calls. Eight years later, it still is sometimes better to be lucky than good, but a little experience has to have helped.
When my father told me i needed to take inexperience into account while driving as a teenager, I thought he was just talking. A few accidents later....

Not baiting for flame, just bringing an issue to take into account...

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

Indeed it was, just glad that everyone is okay.

 

[Donsa320]

Here is a website with fotos of the airplane,

http://fieldtech.com/~mbyrne/northwest/

 

[pianoman]

I have to agree. If the braking's that bad, just call it nil. Don't worry about me not making it home that night, I'd rather be stranded at an outstation and not filling out an accident report.

BTW, also there are some jets out there that either don't have reversers or they're MEL'd. Those guys definitely need an accurate braking report.

 

[PCL_128]

The hydraulic thing is just a rumor as far as I've heard. We all know how well we can trust the old rumor mill in this industry. I'd wait until we get an actual report before we start condemning the pilots for anything.