Any News On the Pinnacle CRJ Accident at MKE

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

Just curious what's up? My father went over to the MidEx hangar where it is "parked" and said the undercarriage and flaps are in bad shape and the gear doors were sheared. They reviewed the ASDE playback and said that when they left the runway, that they were over a 100kts.

Not much was said about it here on the local media. Just glad to hear everyone is safe and sound.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

When was this?

MM

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

Friday night, my dad just got off of work at approach and it happened after that. He had said it was going to be classified as an accident by the ntsb now i guess. I don't want to say much of anything because I dont know a lot, just what I was told by my father who is a supervisor there at mke atc. If anyone knows anymore i would be interested, he thought it may have been an A-symetrical TR deployment or something, that was his best guesstimate. Again, I am not in the know so I was just trying to find out any info, because it didnt make any news here at all hardly.

 

[PCL_128]

Not much info to be had that I can find. Only thing I've heard is that nobody was injured and the crew was able to taxi the plane to the ramp without assistance. If it's been classified as an accident, that's news to me. Yesterday the union was calling it just an incident.

As for a single TR deployment, I would doubt that would be a problem. I've had single TRs MEL'd several times and the plane is very easy to control using max reverse on a single TR.

 

[ShadowFlight]

Supposedly, the crew landed 1L and, for some unknown reason, the airplane departed 1L somewhere around the 25L/7R intersection, cut through the grass, across Twy E and Twy B, coming to stop close to the US Air gates. Fortunately, Skyway didn't have any planes parked in Spot 1 or 2 otherwise they might've hit a plane. We did receive a larger-than-forecasted snowfall Friday night and maybe Airport Ops hadn't plowed the runways yet.

Glad the crew and passengers were not injured.

Peace

SF

 

[Lear70]

We haven't been given any info on it, just that it happened and union and company investigators are on-site.

As to why an aircraft departs a controlled surface to the left or right on the landing rollout? The only things that jump out at me right away are a dual tire blowout, brake seizure, or steering malfunction. Any of those suck and not much you can do...

I agree with PCL, a T/R deployment alone, even at full reverse, is not enough to do that ON LANDING; rudder and steering input can overcome this at just about any speed.

Doesn't sound like the damage to the aircraft is enough to put it into the "accident" category, especially if it was still taxiiable. Haven't heard anything on this either...

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

Well that's good to hear..... maybe my father heard wrong on the classification, but good to hear that everyone is safe and sound. Could have been a lot worse that's for sure..... Hey there Karl, was good to see ya lastnight!

 

[Paul R. Smith]

SF

Is that an old North Central or Republic bird..either way...its a cool avatar.

anyway..
Are we sure its a crj?

The Erj has a nosewheel steering issue that has caught a few crews off guard.

 

[PCL_128]

Yep, it's definitely a CRJ. Pinnacle doesn't fly any ERJs.

 

[ShadowFlight]

Thread hijack

Is that an old North Central or Republic bird..either way...its a cool avatar.

Thanks. It's an original, true-blue North Central CV580 and the plane was photographed flying over WI sometime in the late '60s. It's ship 304, N90857. The photo editor program I used wasn't very good at reducing the picture to meet Flightinfo's requirements. A lot of detail was lost.

I remember flying on these as a kid long before NC and Southern merged to become Republic. No offense to the fine people at NWA but I think North Central/Republic was better than NWA and should've remained on their own.

Just like the original PSA before USAir bought them. Good ol' DC9's and 727's painted in that awesome orange scheme and the "smile" on the nose.

Isn't progress great? NOT!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled postings...

Peace

SF

 

[Donsa320]

Thanks. It's an original, true-blue North Central CV580 and the plane was photographed flying over WI sometime in the late '60s. It's ship 304, N90857. The photo editor program I used wasn't very good at reducing the picture to meet Flightinfo's requirements. A lot of detail was lost.

I remember flying on these as a kid long before NC and Southern merged to become Republic. No offense to the fine people at NWA but I think North Central/Republic was better than NWA and should've remained on their own.

Just like the original PSA before USAir bought them. Good ol' DC9's and 727's painted in that awesome orange scheme and the "smile" on the nose.

Isn't progress great? NOT!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled postings...

Peace

SF

Just to keep the record straight....ship number 304 would have been the correct number when it was a Convair 340 but after conversion to a 580 it was ship number 504. It would have been one of the first 5 Convairs that North Central bought from Braniff in 1959 as CV340's and converted in 1967 to the Allison Convair.

Regards,

~DC

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Yep, it's definitely a CRJ. Pinnacle doesn't fly any ERJs.

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** I knew that!!! I guess I just totally glazed over the title of this thread...next beer please.

 

[ShadowFlight]

Just to keep the record straight....ship number 304 would have been the correct number when it was a Convair 340 but after conversion to a 580 it was ship number 504. It would have been one of the first 5 Convairs that North Central bought from Braniff in 1959 as CV340's and converted in 1967 to the Allison Convair.

Regards,

~DC

Donsa,

Thanks for the correction. I thought it was "304" but after looking at the picture, it looks more like "504". Nice history lesson too - it would've been great to be a pilot during that era.

Again, thanks!

Peace

SF

 

[Donsa320]

Shadow...naw you would not have wanted to fly back then because now you would be old like me. <bg>

~DC

 

[ilinipilot]

I blame MKE atc. It sounds clearly to me that it was there fault. They all should be fired.

Regards

D

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I remember flying on these as a kid long before NC and Southern merged to become Republic. No offense to the fine people at NWA but I think North Central/Republic was better than NWA and should've remained on their own.

Just like the original PSA before USAir bought them. Good ol' DC9's and 727's painted in that awesome orange scheme and the "smile" on the nose.

Isn't progress great? NOT!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled postings...

Peace

SF

US Air seemed to be able to ruin just about everything it came into contact with. It was foolish to buy out PSA, Allegheny, and especially Piedmont. It turned great companies into a big pile of CRAP! Buying out other airlines has always seemed to create more trouble for the buyer than it was worth. They would be better off just expanding on thier own. Just imagine how much healthier United and American would be right now if they had just waited for USAir and TWA to fold on their own then swoop in on the openings rather than spend all that money trying to merge (and in AA's case taking on all that TWA debt)

 

[fly4ever]

The NTSB has two events listed involving Pinnacle this past few days. One was described as sliding off of a taxiway and the other involved veering off of the runway at high speed. Both at MKE.

 

[DiverDriver]

The NTSB has two events listed involving Pinnacle this past few days. One was described as sliding off of a taxiway and the other involved veering off of the runway at high speed. Both at MKE.

From the FAA daily intake: http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/iirform.htm

This one on 3/11:

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: FLG2823 Make/Model: CRJ2 Description: CANADAIR CRJ-200, RJ-200 REGIO
Date: 03/11/2005 Time: 0500

Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: None

LOCATION
City: MILWAUKEE State: WI Country: US

DESCRIPTION
NW AIRLINK, FLG2823, A CANADAIR CRJ-200, SLID OFF THE TAXIWAY WHILE
MANEUVERING, NO INJURIES REPORTED, MILWAUKEE, WI

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: UNK

OTHER DATA
Activity: Business Phase: Taxi Operation: Air Carrier

Departed: Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: Flt Plan: Wx Briefing:
Last Radio Cont:
Last Clearance:

FAA FSDO: MILWAUKEE, WI (GL13) Entry date: 03/14/2005

This one from 3/12:

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 8932C Make/Model: CL60 Description: CL-600/601/604 Challenger (CC-
Date: 03/12/2005 Time: 0502

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Minor Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MILWAUKEE State: WI Country: US

DESCRIPTION
PINNACLE AIRLINES, N8932C, A BOMBARDIER CL-600-2B19 ACFT, ON LANDING VEERED
OFF THE RUNWAY, MILWAUKEE, WI

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 2 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 8 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 1 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: KMKE 120552Z 33016KT 10SM FEW050 BKN070 M02/M07 A2926

OTHER DATA
Activity: Business Phase: Landing Operation: Air Carrier

Departed: LAGUARDIA, NY Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: MILWAUKEE, WI Flt Plan: IFR Wx Briefing: Y
Last Radio Cont: UNK
Last Clearance: UNK

FAA FSDO: MILWAUKEE, WI (GL13) Entry date: 03/14/2005

Does MKE have a snow removal/notam about current conditions problem? Dunno if they are related.

 

[Donsa320]

From the FAA daily intake: http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/iirform.htm

This one on 3/11:



This one from 3/12:



Does MKE have a snow removal/notam about current conditions problem? Dunno if they are related.

It is the same incident. I'm guessing that the damage proved to be greater than originally thought when the first description of the occurance was reported.

~DC

 

[DiverDriver]

It is the same incident. I'm guessing that the damage proved to be greater than originally thought when the first description of the occurance was reported.

~DC

Ahhh, thanks for the clarification.

 

[belchfire]

Thanks. It's an original, true-blue North Central CV580 and the plane was photographed flying over WI sometime in the late '60s. It's ship 304, N90857. The photo editor program I used wasn't very good at reducing the picture to meet Flightinfo's requirements. A lot of detail was lost.

I remember flying on these as a kid long before NC and Southern merged to become Republic. No offense to the fine people at NWA but I think North Central/Republic was better than NWA and should've remained on their own.

Just like the original PSA before USAir bought them. Good ol' DC9's and 727's painted in that awesome orange scheme and the "smile" on the nose.

Isn't progress great? NOT!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled postings...SF

Yeah, and I wish that the Summa Corp hadn't sold
Hughes Air West to Republic...kind of strange seeing
some of the old Bonanza (pre-HAW) DC-9's in the
new NWA colors...saw N9335 the other day (old paintjob).

Hughes AirWest...Top Bannana in the West!

Those were the days...*sigh*

 

[WillFlyFoCookie]

Friday Night

I was flying Friday night and MKE got hit with something pretty bad conditions for a while. When we came in, they were using 19R at the time and some beechjet as he was turning off reported "braking action poor-to-nil" we were about a minute from touchdown and we're just like, "'poor-to-nil' still sounds like poor to me" and we landed. It was definitely slippery but it certainly wasn't "nil." IMHO if you go off the end of the runway, then call the braking "nil". If you are able to stop, then call the braking, "very poor" if you like but don't even risk shutting the airport down to all 121 and 135 traffic by using "nil" in any manner. The gut reaction that people have to "nil" even when they just hear it in "poor-to-nil" is pretty amazing. Even though everyone else who landed afterward reported "poor" the controller kept telling people it was "poor-to-nil."

The wind later shifted to favor 1L and that's the runway Pinnacle was trying to land on when they skipped off. They probably had a decent crosswind and maybe that was a factor as well. I bet the CRJ is challenging in a good cross wind because you can't dip you wing into the wind too much or I suppose it could hit the ground. I'm just glad that nobody was seriously hurt and that no aircraft got run into. Some witnesses said it was kind of crazying seeing this plane come out of nowhere and sliding to a stop with full reverse thrust deployed. The really funny thing that I heard but I'm guessing isn't true is that when they did finally come to a stop, they asked for "progressive taxi."

Maybe this was mother nature's way of telling Northwest to get off Midwest's turf! (Get it?...because they departed the runway....okay I know I'm not very funny)

Peace,

WFFC

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

Hey D....Very Funny. And yes the damage was quite substantial to the undercarriage, Pops talked directly with the NTSB and was classified as an accident as of this past sunday. Hey Krawl and D

 

[Skybound737]

I landed perhaps an hour prior to the Pinnacle aircraft on the same runway that night. Not a significant crosswind from what I remember. The braking action was reported fair. The runway was icy and I didnt use brakes until below 80 kts with TR's fully out untill 80. The brakes grabbed a little untill about 60 or so, but after that the brakes didnt do much to stop the plane. We were skidding along at about 50 with no intermittant "grabs" of the runway untill about 10-20 I guess...I called it poor as it should have been in my opinion. On the way to the hotel it started snowing again pretty hard (it was not snowing when we landed and we had a visual approach). I can imagine that the extra snow added to some poor-nil conditions down the same runway. The ramp was hard to walk on as it was pure ice next to my airplane after parking.

I didnt notice the poor braking until right around the first high speed exit which was in no way possible or safe(for us). In the morning I asked the controler where the AC left the runway (heard about it in the hotel) and they said "right next to you"...we were next to the first high speed where our aircraft started sliding on the brakes the night before from what I could measure.

 

[fly4ever]

Donsa320,

How did you determine it to be the same event? The taxiing/maneuvering event doesn't list origination/destination or passengers and crew. This almost sounds like the airplane was being repositioned on the ground. The other report lists this info and they were entered on separate days.

Just curious.

Fly

 

[Donsa320]

Donsa320,

How did you determine it to be the same event? The taxiing/maneuvering event doesn't list origination/destination or passengers and crew. This almost sounds like the airplane was being repositioned on the ground. The other report lists this info and they were entered on separate days.

Just curious.

Fly

Well I did not determine anything...just guessing since the time stamps were 24 hours and 2 minutes apart if the dates are correct and 2 minutes apart if the filer did not realize that GMT time was "tomorrow" < Grin>.

Anyway there is only one beat up CRJ in our hanger...I'm going to try and look at it tomorrow.

~DC

 

[fly4ever]

Donsa320,

Thanks for the response.

I figured a slide off of a taxiway would probably not have caused much damage to anything but the ego but doing a hundred knots plus when you take a shortcut would definitely cause damage to aircraft and ego. The main thing is no one was hurt.

It just sounds like there were two different events with different outcomes. Your are probably correct though.

Fly

 

[Donsa320]

Donsa320,

Thanks for the response.

I figured a slide off of a taxiway would probably not have caused much damage to anything but the ego but doing a hundred knots plus when you take a shortcut would definitely cause damage to aircraft and ego. The main thing is no one was hurt.

It just sounds like there were two different events with different outcomes. Your are probably correct though.

Fly

Well somebody was hurt and one of our mechanics mentioned some severe bounces occurring before the runway excursion. If there were two different events I would not want to be anywhere near their Chief Pilot's office. <vbg> Let's let the NTSB sort it out though.

Regards,
~DC

 

[fly4ever]

Good advice

Likewise,

Fly

 

[dondk]

For the little that I know
Pilot was landing 1L... they were trying to clear the runway of the heavy snow that had fallen. Pilot asked several times of the condition and IF they needed more time. They reported the rwy as fair, he made the landing and the rest is basically as stated. Although the braking action was far from fair the best guess was 1" over ice. Finally, it is classified as an accident due to the extent of the damage.