Anti PFT - You're all whores!

[jethro]

Since everyone else seems to have a quarterly quota of PFT posts to make, allow me to fill mine. The self-serving posts of the anti-PFT crowd are nothing short of infantile; PFT isn't going anywhere, like it or not. Fact is, money gets you places in this country, and that's exactly the way it should be - if you don't like it, go move to some third world socialist craphole in the interest of fairness and spread the wealth. If a 250-hour wonder jumps ahead of you in line because they're a 10% shareholder in your airline, ex-college roomates with the CEO, performs lewd sexual acts on the chief pilot, or PFT'ed - get over it. You can't provide one bit of empirical evidence that they perform the duties of their job one bit worse than anyone else; show me factual data and I'll gladly eat crow.

The most hilarious part of this is the imbeciles most vehemently against PFT are not sitting in a cushy job at a major, but rather competing for a $20,000 seat flying an RJ - ANYONE who takes that seat is a WHORE, period - PFT types included. You mean to tell me it's fair to pay someone less than a bus driver wage flying a 40 seat jet around the country? YOU'RE the ones taking those seats AWAY from the qualified, level-headed pilot who makes a choice not to work for that piss poor salary because he can't adequately provide for his family.

Now don't get me wrong - this isn't socialist rhetoric... is it fair for the companies to pay that wage? You bet! It's a free economy, and you're the ones accepting it. Just don't sit around whining that someone stole that $20,000 seat from you with an I'm holier than thou attitude because of PFT.

Oh and happy new year!

 

[FN FAL]

Pay For Training is a funny subject. It's going to cost me 25,000 bucks and some effort over the next two years, to up grade my associate degree into a bachelor degree. I don't hardly think it's PFT in the real sense of the word, but I can't get above this glass ceiling without it and of course without spending the money.

 

[rattler]

Jetho your an idiot! However, I do like your militant attitude. I think eveyone agrees regional airline wages are by far unexceptable, and that PFT is the route of all evil. The problem cannot be solved from the outside looking in. As long a there are pilots that are willing to work for $19K a year, tough, we are stuck with it. If you are a pilot with 1200TT what are you suppose to do? Where are all these $40K a year jobs for someone at that level? Our only hope to raise these horrific pay levels is to support your union and raise the bar from within. So what is your brilliant plan? How did you avoid the regionals? How do recommend others do it? How can we convince AMR Eagle, CoEX, Com Air, etc, managments that they need to pay more or as a pilot group we will not apply for their pitiful jobs? Enlighten me, and save our industry. Think about what you are typing before you start calling regional airline pilots "whores".

 

[Timebuilder]

Let me explain to you how you impede the growth and health of PFT as a capitalist.

I may be the most energetic proponent of capitalism here, so, as the Vulcan proverb goes, "only Nixon could go to China".

First, you refuse to PFT yourself. You deprive the carrier that decides to use the right seat as a revenue center, instead of filling it with a qualified pilot whom they train as a CODB, of the availability of another warm body with money to burn. Better still, you call and tell them to stick it. Capitalism is a two way street: they can offer, but you don't have to accept.

Then you tell other fresh-faced airline hopefulls what PFT does to the airline industry, how it lowers the already low market value of a professional pilot and creates and/or perpetuates the idea that young pilots are a bunch of starry eyed kids instead of savvy professional aviators who know which side their bread is buttered on. This is the essence of collective bargaining on an interpersonal level.

When and if you get a chance, you refuse to hire PFT people so that word gets around that other pilots see this as unacceptable, and it can hurt your chance for being hired by a carrier that pays better than the average regional.

You do all of this as a capitalist, who is engaging in enlightened self interest.

The most hilarious part of this is the imbeciles most vehemently against PFT are not sitting in a cushy job at a major, but rather competing for a $20,000 seat flying an RJ - ANYONE who takes that seat is a WHORE, period - PFT types included. You mean to tell me it's fair to pay someone less than a bus driver wage flying a 40 seat jet around the country?

No, I am not in line for any other job in an aircraft, as you have no doubt read in other posts. You should consider the difference between being able to control the wages of the regional airline industry, which can't be done, and deciding to PFT to advance yourself ahead of others who have followed the bushido of the professional aviator, for which one has a personal responsibility for the betterment of aviation. One is a way of honor, the other a way of dishonor. The fact that carriers can offer a rate below bus driver means that they have a surplus of people who want to have that job, because they want to be above those bus drivers and have a different kind of expereince, one that Man has wanted for centuries. The ones who are in the business for strictly economic reasons have the ability to look elsewhere.

YOU'RE the ones taking those seats AWAY from the qualified, level-headed pilot who makes a choice not to work for that piss poor salary because he can't adequately provide for his family.

Not true. Those jobs are not offered to those who choose to not take that seat. If you work for a regional, it doesn't make you a whore, it means that you would rather fly than do anything else. It's a decision that you should make before begining this oddessy, and only if you don't have those family responsibilities 100% on your shoulders. A supportive family and a second income are almost essential. You take that seat because you love to fly, not to get rich. If you are fortunate, you do better in a few years. Along with PFT, we need to counter the idea of the "pilot shortage" that continually pumps new pilots into the system, depressing wages.

And one more thing: speaking out against something that's perceived to be wrong is as American as the constitution. No one is an "idiot" for doing so. It is a very active and vocal debate, based on the idea that we can, in a small way, discourage a practice that clearly makes the professional pilot less valuable .

 

[avbug]

Jethro,

You pinheaded pusnutted knoteyed freak, think before you open that low-experience, undeducated fat claptrap of yours, will you?

I probably have more experience in aviation than you'll have in many careers, in this industry. As one of those "imbeciles" to whom you refer, I have a hatred that knows almost no end for those who buy their jobs. I certainly don't lack the experience to know what I'm talking about.

I, for one, have seen ample evidence up close and personal of those who are only working in the industry because they bought their way in. I've wrestled aircraft away from them in flight. I've seen gross incompetence passed into gainful employment by the almighty dollar. I've seen no shortage of evidence, face to face, of what happens when bloody idiots buy their jobs, rather than earn them. Sell your rhetoric to someone more ignorant than yourself; such a person is the only one who could possibly buy that garbage.

I needn't dredge up statistics to prove that to such an one as ignorant as you, or any other, you dimwitted twat. I have read some ridiculous, stupid, inflamatory commentary on this board over the past few years...but yours ties with the best of the worst that those who come here have to offer.

 

[Northern Lights]

This quote from Timebuilder really sums up PFT in my eyes...

PFT hardly ever leads to a real job. It's a "program" where you are building "expereince". In addition, you are displacing an otherwise qualified pilot who would have been paid, not paying for this position. Almost always, this is a commercial bottom feeder operator who is using this "program" to cut his costs of operation, hoping to take advantage of the inexpereinced and the uninitiated young pilots who are hot to trot for that 121 job, or turbine time, or the ability to say "I'm a professional pilot". What these kids don't know is that the title "professional" has many meanings beyond becoming a required crewmember for an air carrier.

from the thread "tell 'em what they've won, Bob" 8-28-03

 

[mattfish42]

"pusnutted"?

 

[350DRIVER]

jethro-

You are an idiot, a first class one. I am sorry that you have gotten screwed somewhere along the line and that you are just a tad bitter. (me laughing at you)


Keep up the hard work,

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[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

The most hilarious part of this is the imbeciles most vehemently against PFT are not sitting in a cushy job at a major, but rather competing for a $20,000 seat flying an RJ - ANYONE who takes that seat is a WHORE, period - PFT types included.

Hold on there, Sparky. There's a major difference between competing for that seat honestly and getting out the checkbook and cutting in line ahead of others by purchasing that seat via P-F-T. I now feel compelled to reiterate earlier comments about how you like it when (1) someone tries to bully his way ahead of you into the turning lane that you and every other driver has lined up in; (2) when some bonehead cuts you off in traffic; (3) when another bonehead pushes ahead of you in line at the checkout stand. Do you abide these things? People who follow the rules do not and do not tolerate those who do.

As long as you've brought up sex and whores, by purchasing the seat you begin the relationship with your new employer the wrong way. By purchasing the seat he sees that you're willing to take it up the ass again, and again, ad infinitum. I guess that makes P-F-T a truly personal decision, depending on your likes and dislikes, and what turns you on or off.

We can debate all day the fairness of the compensation, but those who are hired for these jobs legtimately are not whores. $20K salary or not, underpaid (yes) or not, it is still a flying job, a required crew position, and a legitimate job. By paying for that seat, as Timebuilder has stated repeatedly, you eliminate another compensated crew position. The idea is to increase the number of compensated crew positions so more pilots can be working, not decreasing them so that fewer pilots are working.

Finally, despite what you might think, P-F-T is alive and living - as it has been for the past fourteen years or so.

How's the foregoing for vehemence? Up to now, I didn't realize that I was an imbecile. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[TurboS7]

Unless the PFT'er buys all the beer, food, taxi cab fares, and pays for all the phone calls back home. I agree with avbug, but if he is willing to pay for all of the above ...........for the whole crew,,,,,,,,,,,,, maybe we would put up with him/her.

 

[logolight]

I have also mentioned in past posts that Pay for training and internships result in only one crew member being paid to fly the aircraft. This is how the small and probably non-union arilines are able to make money. PFT will be around as long as people are willing to pay for it.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Wow.

Throw in a few Jesus jokes, and this'd be a really messy thread!

(Interesting that the Bible and PFT cause the most heated arguments...)

 

[350DRIVER]

We have a few people who had to buy there jobs from Gulfjoke who frequent this board and possibly they can shed some light on how they are treated by others within the profession. But guess what, it was only a little over $18,000 to rent the right seat of a 1900 out and now they get to fly a shiny new RJ. woo hoo.


PFT is highly looked down upon by most in this industry but I guess if you have less than average flying skills then you can always write the check out to buy the job versus earning it the hard way like most of us have done..


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[dmspilot00]

The reason there are regional jobs that pay 20,000 per year is because of the huge surplus of inexperienced pilots. Turning down such a job would only result in someone other than you being hired. The end result is this: instead of making $20,000/year, you make $0/year.

 

[Timebuilder]

PFT will be around as long as people are willing to pay for it.

Yep.

Best argument in the world for counseling young pilots against it.



Typhoon, what was the only car mentioned in the Bible?

It was a Honda.

Acts 2:1-

"When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place."

 

[skyking1976]

Typhoon, what was the only car mentioned in the Bible?

It was a Honda.

Acts 2:1-

"When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place."

I'm not so sure of your Biblical research. It seems the O.T. had more taste in the way of vehicles...

Numbers 7:13 - And his offering was one silver charger, the weight thereof was an hundred and thirty shekels

 

[pipejockey]

The idiot that started this thread said that PFT is here to stay. Well there are only 2 purely PFT airlines out there now, Colgan and Gulfstream. And colgan just started doing it last summer. PFT was all over in the 90's, but as hiring picked up it disappeared.

Once the students at Regional Airline Academy have other airlines like Trans States or Express Jet to choose from, Colgan won't be able to find anyone to pay $18000 to fly a Beech1900.

 

[Typhoon1244]

...I guess if you have less than average flying skills then you can always write the check out to buy the job versus earning it the hard way like most of us have done.

My July '98 class at ASA had about twenty people in it, everything from a Marine Corps AH-1 driver all the way down to an 800-hour CFI. I'll match the flying skills of any one of us against you any day of the week in any airplane, 350.

Five years later, we've gotten that money back, and we've each got about eleven-hundred more seniority numbers than those who couldn't stomach it.

If you don't like PFT, don't do it!

 

[350DRIVER]

My July '98 class at ASA had about twenty people in it, everything from a Marine Corps AH-1 driver all the way down to an 800-hour CFI. I'll match the flying skills of any one of us against you any day of the week in any airplane, 350.

I appreciate the comment but I am no different than most Typhoon, fortunately I never had to buy a job (same as you). You are entitled to your opinion as others are but "buying" a job versus "earning" it surely is in the minority. I would take the Greyhound before I would ever step foot on Gulf.

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[Typhoon1244]

...I never had to buy a job (same as you).

Are you saying that since my $6000 was reimbursed it doesn't count as PFT?

Or are you saying you're not aware ASA was running a PFT program through FlightSafety at the time?