Another news release from APA and ALPA

[justApilot]

I briefly looked on the website for the proposal that John Darrah sent to AA management about relief on scope. I could not find it. Basically it said you want relief on scope...this is what you have to do...combine the 2 lists. yes, there were 3 steps. What it comes down to is that ALL flying will be done by APA pilots. This is where the confusion/misunderstanding began. Darrah sent another letter to Eagle with a better explaination of what the proposal was and was not about. It is not a grab at the EAGLE flying or Eagle jobs. I see one list as a win win for Eagle, APA and AMR. Eagle pilots become part of the mainline(better pay, retirement, etc) and APA and AMR both have one less scope issue to fight over. With that big scope issue taken care of AMR can focus on what they need to do to make money.


Something that the Eagle pilots that have aspirations of flying for AA should think about. If Eagle continues to grow (more planes,routes) at the expense of AA flying (fewer planes,routes), you greatly reduce your chances of flying at AA. Good luck to everyone involved.

 

[Frank Bama]

Please explain to me how American Connection is "Replacing Eagle in a variety of markets," according to the press release? How can Trans States and Chautauqua replace these routes and markets when they were never Eagle's to begin with? Yes they fly in STL feeding American. But how can it be said that TSA or CHQ is a "threat to Eagle's job security" when a 1/4 of the Connection pilots are on furlough and almost as much airplanes parked? Maybe I'm reading the release in the wrong way, but it still doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[DaveGriffin]

April Fools joke

The release date for the announcement is 01 April. Is this press release an April Fool's gag?

 

[EagleRJ]

There is no "full proposal" that the APA prepared along with the January 18 proposal. What was released was all there was. The idea was to invite the three parties to the table to work out the specifics.

 

[FLYnMONKEYS]

I'm all for one list! As a current AA furloughee I can't wait to get my hands on the CRJ-700. Can someone from Eagle tell me what your contract says it will pay? Go APA!!!!

 

[80drvr]

IMHO, AA hasn't lost a single job as a result of Eagles existence.

Correct me if I'm wrong and show me why I'm wrong. Thanks.

AA has lost many routes to AE and consequently jobs. Eagle has replaced AA on numerous flights out of PHX, LAX, SJC, DCA and RDU to many former narrowbody destinations. I'm not talking about new long range service to thin markets. When you look at growth over the last decade, Eagles seat mile growth is somewhere around 20% while AA's is around 2%. These are approximate numbers, so anyone who has the latest actual numbers please join the fray.

 

[surplus1]

There is no "full proposal" that the APA prepared along with the January 18 proposal. What was released was all there was. The idea was to invite the three parties to the table to work out the specifics.

Are you serious?

Do you mean to tell me that you guys are ready to put your jobs on the line based an a press release summary of a proposal from the APA that does not exist?

No personal offense intended, but I didn't think there was still any professional pilot left anywhere that was gullible enough to do that. Guess I have a lot to learn.

If there really is "no full proposal" and all you have is a "summary press release" followed by another APA/ALPA "press" release, then somebody is selling you a used car driven only to church on Sunday by an 85 year old lady. In view of the history at AE and the 16 year "industry leading" good deal that somebody sold you before, I would think you'd be more alert.

Tell me your kidding please, I can't believe all this hype over something that doesn't really exist.

 

[Draginass]

DaveGriffin -
Here's your April Fools news release:

APA announced 1 Apr the details of a proposed integration plan they submit to the company's regional carrier for their consideration. The proposal includes full DOH bidding seniority with no fences, and pushing the company for full retro pay for those flow-through pilots and other pilots with applications in with mainline, as well as those who unsuccessfully interviewed with mainline at any time during the past 16 years. During a recent vote, the APA also will seek reaffiliation with ALPA. A mainline spokesman said that although historically integrations use pay, benefits, equipment, and career expectations as baselines for integrating seniority lists, the mainline pilots feel that is grossly unfair to fellow professional pilots, regardless of experience level, previous work history, or complexity and size of equipment flown. In the future, the company is also being urged to favor minimally qualified pilots instead of pilots with previous military experience. "We feel that military pilots tend to be rigid whereas minimally qualified pilots are easier to mold into our corporate ethos." The spokesman also went on to say that this proposal is just an openers, and that there is more flexibility should the regional pilots find any elements in the proposal objectionable.

 

[surplus1]

AA has lost many routes to AE and consequently jobs. Eagle has replaced AA on numerous flights out of PHX, LAX, SJC, DCA and RDU to many former narrowbody destinations.

Are you trying to tell me that every time the Company changes equipment on a route it sends the airplane that used to fly that route to be parked in the desert? Have those equipment substitutions resulted in a reduction in your block hours? If not, you haven't lost any jobs. Your airplane is just flying to a different place.

The recent reduction in your ASMs is caused by the downturn in the economy and the 9-11 attacks on our country. Neither of those events have anything to do with Eagle. They are also losing business for the same reasons. If Eagle wasn't there to keep some passengers coming, your ASM would have been reduced even further. The exact opposite of what you claim.

When you look at growth over the last decade, Eagles seat mile growth is somewhere around 20% while AA's is around 2%. These are approximate numbers, so anyone who has the latest actual numbers please join the fray.

So there has been a different growth rate at AE than at AA. How does that equate to your losing jobs? Do you actually believe that if AE did not exist it's 20% ASM growth would suddenly appear on the bottom of the AA ledger and make your growth 22%? I hope that's not what you think, 'cause that's not how it works.

AE is a much smaller company and it is much easier to show a higher percentage growth rate in a small company than it is in a large one. You are looking at apples and comparing them to oranges. I don't have the numbers to do the math, but if you didn't have AE it is just as propable as not that your 2% positive could have been 2% negative, without the feed generated by AE.

There are markets in which large aircraft (which includes your AA narrow body equipment) are simply unprofitable and smaller aircraft make money on the same route. If I followed your hypothesis, all the airplanes would be triple sevens. How many jobs would you lose then?

The CASM of the small aircraft is much higher than the CASM of your larger equipment. You can bet your bottom dollar that the second your management knows that it can show a higher yield by using bigger airframes, it will take AE off the route in a heart beat and give it to AA. That's what it should do and that would NOT mean you were taking anything from AE.

AE does not reduce your growth rate, it actually maintains or improves it. That is why management operates AE. They aren't busy trying to figure out how to replace you, they're busy trying to make a buck.

I think we pilots too often forget that the purpose of the operation is to make profit for the shareholders, not provide jobs for us. I'm about as far from being a management puke as you can get, but I'm not without common sense either.

Your airline just grew by a big margin due to the acquisition of TWA. Not too much before that it grew due to the purchase of Reno. How many of you do you think might be furloughed today if those things had not happened?

I don't think you should outsource your flying, but the fact that your contract allows some of the flying to be done by a subsidiary is not the company's fault and it is not Eagle's fault. It is your fault (along with that of every other major airline except SWA).

All those little airplanes that you're complaining about (Eagle) should have been flown by AA pilots from day one. You didn't want that (for whatever reason) and so you got what you wanted (the creation of a subsidiary). Now you're complaining about it. Too late, the horse is already out of the barn.

I agree there's a need to fix it and get all the airplanes in one stable, but that means the Eagle pilots should come with their airplanes. ALL of them! It does not mean that you should transfer their airplanes to you and put them on the street.

Sorry for the rant. Sometimes it is just necessary to tell it like it is and fortunately I don't have to be "politically correct". I am not an AE pilot or an AA pilot.

This whole thing is a big problem and it needs to be fixed. It can't be fixed by one group of pilots shafting another group of pilots just because they can.

I think your group is on the right track, i.e., all the flying done by one pilot group. However, the methodology summarized sounds veryssuspect to me, not like a workable deal. That's why I asked for the "full proposal." I can't form a legitimate opinon based on a press release. The AE pilots on this board seem to think they can. God help them.

Best regards.

 

[Steve McCroskey]

Surplus
Unless I missed a post I haven't read of any AE pilots endorsing or blindly signing on to the APA proposal on this web board. You asked for the details and the few available have been provided. Give the AE pilots a little credit for having enough sense not to march ignorantly into an agreement such as this (we have been burnt before ie, current contract). The AE pilots I have spoken with are cautiously optimistic about the idea of one listing but are not willing to jeopardize their futures with out concrete details. Anyway the cart has gotten before the horse, unless AMR changes their previous stance on this issue it may go no further than the current proposal and this web board. Thanks for your thoughts on all of your posts, you really seem to think things through before responding. Just remember others put the same amount of thought into their respective futures.