Another king Air question

[F16fixer]

Sorry guys, but I also have a question on logging time.
I am currently flying right seat in a B200. I thought it was a pretty cool upgrade from pumping avgas. I also flight instruct, so this is not my only time builder. My question is how much time is too much? The ATP that I fly with signs my log book as dual given. He makes me earn it too! Anyway, under part 61.167 I believe (ASA FAR/AIM) is how this can be done. ATP's can give instruction under certain circumstances. I talked with an examiner, and AOPA. They both told me it was kosher. We fly a lot and it helps me pay my bills, so I would probably keep doing it even if I couldn't log it. It beats working at MCdonalds or something like that while I time build! I figure I better not show up to an interview with 500 hours dual received, but will 100 or 200 be a problem.

Thanks for any advice,

Luke

 

[p3hawk]

Do or did you fly F-16 Vipers? If you did does this ATP guy you fly with trust you to fly left seat dead head legs?

 

[pilot error]

i'm sure someone will correct me if i am wrong, but the king air 200 doesn't require a type. for an atp to give you dual he has to be typed in it. if he has an mei though, i don't see a problem.

 

[banned username 2]

Since the BE-200 doesn't require a type, all the time you are the "Sole Manipulator of the Controls" you can log as PIC (as long as it is all Part 91)... Now if you go to an interview with 500 hours of King Air time but don't know squat about the airplane, that will look very, very bad... Make sure you learn and understand the systems to the best of your ability...

Have fun, keep flying, be safe and log it!

 

[FalconPilot69]

Falcon Capt Is Correct..

Also, we all have to assume that you are not flying C-12's, since they are the only King Air 200's that require a type. Your ATP friend must have an MEI in order to be giving you dual received. Like Falcon Capt said, "Log PIC, when you are the sole manipulator of the controls". That is totally legal.

 

[UGAflyer]

Make sure you have a high altitude endorsement before you log the PIC, though. If he is an MEI he can give that to you.

 

[aroundtheblock]

nice catch UGA, most guys forget that.

 

[User546]

Make sure you have a high altitude endorsement before you log the PIC, though. If he is an MEI he can give that to you.

Please explain. Not the high altitude endoresement requirement, but the part about him being able to give it to you as an MEI.

I'm an MEI and I'm not familiar with what you just said. I thought you had to go to specific places, not instructors, to get the required training for the endorsement???

 

[wingnutt]

The 200 has been certified (some of them) for up to 14K MGTOW (I think thats the #).

hmmmmm...the 300 is 14,000 pounds. are you sure you are not thinking in reverse as there was a version of the 300 that was de-certified to only 12,500 named the 300LW. but it was mainly for euoropean use as they were charged more fees based on aircraft weight.

 

[F16fixer]

Thanks for the help guys. It turns out the time is bogus. ATP's can only give instruction in part 121/135 carriers. After you tear apart the reg about ATP's giving instruction you stumble upon this. I messed up and will probably have to erase the 25 or so hours I already have logged as dual received. And no I was not a viper pilot, I was a crew chief on block 50's at Shaw AFB, but I got to fly one at Nellis AFB. I just thought it looked cool on the post. This has turned out to be a pretty crappy day learning this info. I am finishing my MEI right now, maybe I can give him instruction! Just kidding

Thanks,

Luke

 

[350DRIVER]

You are correct, the ATP can only give instruction in air carrier operations, under 121 and 135, this will not work for you flying right seat under part 91. Simple solution which you should have been doing from day 1 would be to log the legs you fly as PIC.

 

[UGAflyer]

Please explain. Not the high altitude endoresement requirement, but the part about him being able to give it to you as an MEI.

I'm an MEI and I'm not familiar with what you just said. I thought you had to go to specific places, not instructors, to get the required training for the endorsement???

Well if he is an MEI and PIC on the King Air, than he should have the high altitude endorsement and can give it to you. If you are an instructor, and have the high altitude endorsement, you can give others the endorsement, after the prescribed training. Just like you can give a complex or high performance endorsement if you have it.

 

[avbug]

Lots of misunderstanding on this topic, apparently.

Make sure you have a high altitude endorsement before you log the PIC, though. If he is an MEI he can give that to you.

A high altitude endorsement is not required to log time in a pressurized airplane or an airplane that requires a high altitude endorsement. Only to act as PIC of that airplane. Acting as PIC and logging PIC are entirely different subjects. One does not require an endorsement to log PIC...one need only be rated for the airplane; category and class, and where required, type.

An ATP may only instruct in air transport service. No type rating is required. Several posters felt that the aircraft must require a type rating, and this is not the case. The aircraft may be a single pilot airplane, but the operation must be air transport service, and must require an ATP. An ATP may be required by the regulation, or the specific regulation established by the company (EG, General Operations Manual). The company ops manual, as accepted by the FAA, becomes a requirement for the company. If the company stipulates that pilots in their employ will posess an ATP certificate, then pilots operating under that companies' 121 or 135 certificate will have an ATP, period.

Such being the case, the ATP is empowered to instruct others in the company in air transport service. If the company operation does not require an ATP then the holder of the ATP does not have the authority nor privilege to provide instruction. Additionally, one may not provide instruction outside the scope of company related business in air transportation service, as an ATP.

14 CFR 61.167 provides:

An airline transport pilot may instruct -
(1) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

The ATP who has provided the instruction has placed himself in a position for violation. The FAA has taken the stand that endorsements in a logbook by an ATP under circumstances in which the ATP is not privileged or permitted to make such endorsements constitute fraud, or at a minimum falsification (falsification is a false statment, where fraud is the same statement with the intent to deceive). This is a violation of not only the privileges accorded under 61.167, but also 61.59.

With respect to type ratings on the King Air 200, such are awarded to military pilots operating C12' with greater allowable takeoff weights. These are not 300 series King airs', but 200 series designated as C12's.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The military King Air B200 is the C-12, The heavier version is the RC-12 (I think) and the type rating only applies to that model...a few years ago there was a big hullaballoo because guys were trying to get type-ratings in the standard 12,500 model and some Fed hammered a bunch of them.

 

[UGAflyer]

Lots of misunderstanding on this topic, apparently.




A high altitude endorsement is not required to log time in a pressurized airplane or an airplane that requires a high altitude endorsement. Only to act as PIC of that airplane. Acting as PIC and logging PIC are entirely different subjects. One does not require an endorsement to log PIC...one need only be rated for the airplane; category and class, and where required, type.

.

Avbug,
I understand that you do not need the endorsement to log time, I said log PIC. What exactly are you saying as far as "acting PIC" and "logging PIC?" Is it something like the pilot flying is logging PIC as the sole manipulator of the controls but the pilot not flying is acting as PIC as in he is the final authority for decision making?? What exactly is the difference between logging and acting?

 

[avbug]

Do you not understand the difference between logging PIC and acting as PIC? There is no similiarity between the two.


I was referring specifically to logging pilot in command time. One is not required to hold a high altitude endorsement in order to log pilot in command time in an aircraft requiring a high altitude endorsement. One may not ACT as pilot in command in an aircraft requiring a high altitude endorsement, but one may certainly log Pilot in Command in that aircraft without the endorsement.

Do you understand the difference between logging time as pilot in command, and acting as pilot in command of an airplane?

 

[UGAflyer]

No I don't understand. I asked what exactly is the difference in logging and acting? My way of thinking is that in order to log than you would have to act. I understand that you have to be rated in the aircraft to log PIC, not neccesarily have the endorsement, like I thought previously. What I do not understand and after looking cannot find an explanation of is what you are talking about as the difference in LOGGING and ACTING as PIC and that there are no similarities. My question is what precisely is the difference?

 

[wingnutt]

c'mon man...two pilots in a single pilot aircraft. lets use a King Air 200 as an example since thats what started this whole thing. the guy in the left seat has his name listed as PIC on the dispatch release, therfore he is the acting PIC. he lets the right seater fly an empty leg, which allows this person to log PIC.

the difference is, if something goes wrong, who do you think is going to get called on the carpet...

 

[F16fixer]

The only way I can put this to understanding, is he's talking about someone giving dual instruction. You sign a private pilot off to solo and then give him dual and he logs PIC dual received. Before that, he cannot. You work on your complex endorsement in a seminole and you log dual received no PIC. You get the endorsement then you log PIC period. If two people are flying an airplane from grandmas to uncle joes and they both log PIC that is illegal, unless one is giving instruction or acting as safety pilot. Someone clue me in on what I am missing because what the guy is saying is over my head too. I eat my humble pie everyday, so it doesn't bother me for someone to correct my thinking.
Thanks

No I don't understand. I asked what exactly is the difference in logging and acting? My way of thinking is that in order to log than you would have to act. I understand that you have to be rated in the aircraft to log PIC, not neccesarily have the endorsement, like I thought previously. What I do not understand and after looking cannot find an explanation of is what you are talking about as the difference in LOGGING and ACTING as PIC and that there are no similarities. My question is what precisely is the difference?

 

[F16fixer]

where in the regs does it say you can log PIC in a high altitude/highperformance aircraft without having an endorsement. You cant even fly the dang thing legally without endorsements, so how do log time?