Another Holding Out Question

[jergar999]

I have a good stable job, but flights are getting fewer and further between and my schedule allows me 8-12 days each month. I know of several operators in my area that use similar or smaller aircraft and was wondering if sending them a letter offering part time or contract services would be considered holding out. I have a list of these companies, and am considering writing a letter that explains my schedule, qualifications, and offers part time services should one of their normal flight crew take a vacation, or they just need a pilot for a day or two. I would offer only part time, careful not to step on the toes of the full timers. Just wondering if me initiating contact could be construed as holding out, and wondering if anyone has any opinions on the idea in general, or what the letter should include.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, but letting potential employers who have airplanes know that you are available for employment as a pilot is not the kind "holding out" that is a violation of the FAR.

 

[Pee_nuss]

I believe the Holding out the FAA is concerned about is when you post flyers around town offering flights to anyone, or whatnot.

When you become a Taxi service basically, or a scheduled air service is when you should be afraid.

Being employed is not holding out. Renting an aircraft and charging a rate to fly from Boston to New York is.

You could always call the FSDO as well if your still worried.

Nuss

 

[DrewBlows]

jergar999,
This is definately not "holding out." If you owned your own airplane and went to this company and offered your services it would be, and would be acting as a commercial opperator, as well as a commercial pilot. Remember your commercial certificate allows you to work for a commercial operater (among other things), but to become a commercial operator requires an entirely different certificate.

 

[bobbysamd]

Holding out

How can it be holding out? You're just letting people know that you are available. If you had an airplane and spread the word that you can fly people and things to places, that would be holding out.

Hopefully, some of the folks here who are working on their Commercial will see this thread. The "holding out" question is a sure bet for the oral.

 

[DrewBlows]

If I am reading this correctly jergar999 is simply going to inquire with this company for a part time job. If that were holding out every one of us who has sent a resume to or filled out an application for a flying job would be in trouble with the FAA.

 

[The Man]

The answer to this question and virtually any other aviation related question can be found in this great new book I picked up called “EVERYTHING EXPLAINED for the Professional Pilot”.

If everyone on this board had a copy, there would be no reason to post a question!

Check it out at www.Aviation-Press.com

You can view dozens of excerpt pages for FREE.

 

[JimNtexas]

...
Check it out at www.Aviation-Press.com

You can view dozens of excerpt pages for FREE.

To bad I can't buy it since the page isn't compatable with my Mozilla Firebird browser. He should drop the flash crap, an he should get his book on Amazon.

Edited to add: OK, I got to the pdf pages, and I have to say the guy is wrong in chapter 9 ( http://www.aviation-press.com/images/chapter9.pdf ) in that he has the irrational fear of the word "emergency" in the U.S. or "Mayday" in non-english speaking countries.

In his example, his Falcon catches fire after takeoff and he doesn't want to say the 'e-word'. He's dumb.

And if he's in that Falcon in another country, he is downright stupid if he uses any word other than "Mayday" or "Pan" to indicate that he needs priority handling. These are the ICAO standard words, and the ATC controller litterally does not have to understand "emergency" or "priority" at all.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Edited to add: OK, I got to the pdf pages, and I have to say the guy is wrong in chapter 9

Hey! The Man said

The answer to this question and virtually any other aviation related question

He didn't say they were good answers.

 

[The Man]

RE: JimNtexas & Midlifeflyer

Sorry about your “Big Lots” browser JimNtexas.

But… please don’t try to trash a GREAT book unless you actually READ IT!

Chapter 9, page 331 is simply a lesson in REALITY when dealing with a life-threatening situation.

As is clearly stated…

“The point is: Don’t be afraid to say the “E-word” but also don’t be afraid to do what is necessary BEFORE getting permission.”

“You do NOT have to FORMALLY DECLARE an EMERGENCY before deviating from a clearance when dealing with a potentially life threatening situation.”

“An uncountable number of pilots and passengers have been KILLED waiting for a “REQUEST” to be granted!!” [AFTER declaring an emergency]

“Do what you have to do [NOW], tell them about it as soon as you get a chance.”

“Chat about semantics later when you get on the ground — ALIVE!!!”


The lesson is NOT that you should be afraid of the “E-word” but that you do NOT need PERMISSION BEFORE you start deviating from a clearance — THAT is what KILLS people.

The previous page (not included as an excerpt) elaborates on this important point.

An ATC controller in ANY country should be able to understand the words… “We are on FIRE and we are turning back to the airport NOW.” And if he doesn’t understand it… who cares… TELL HIM what you need him to do to help you GET IT BACK ON THE GROUND!

This is a GREAT book written by an extremely experienced pilot with well over 11,000 hours of piston and jet time.

You may disagree with some of the opinions, but you will learn more from this one book than any 50 other books.

I apologize for having to differ with you JimNtexas, but this guy is neither stupid nor dumb — AND — he can spell.

www.Aviation-Press.com

 

[Andy Neill]

The Man has posted 4 times as of now and each posting has promoted the book.

Question for The Man:
Are you The Author?

 

[JimNtexas]

“123T understand—are you declaring an emergency?”
“You can call it anything you like—but we need to get it on the ground RIGHT NOW —
We need “PRIORITY” — please give us that heading.”

He's dumb. These two transmissions resulted because he was too macho (i.e. stupid) to say "emergency" or "mayday" when he first keyed the mic. JUST SAY "EMERGENCY" in the U.S. or Mayday overseas.

He is like the 11,000 hour Captain of the South American B707 that ran of gas trying to get into JFK because he was too proud to use standard phraseology. The America controllers couldn't read his mind and so didn't give him priority handling.

And it's apparent that this author never flown overseas, because he clearly doesn't realize that controllers in non-English speaking countries may have an English vocabulary consisting of only a numbers, local place names, the ICAO alphabet, and ICAO standard words. It is critical that a pilot needing traffic priority overseas who needs traffic priority use the word "MAYDAY".

Babbling about "call it what you will" is very unprofessional and dangerous.

 

[DiscoDuck]

JimNtexas,

I actually bought this book a while back and grabbed it off the bookcase when I saw this discussion.

I think you have missed the point the guy was trying to make, ie: in an emergency you are authorized to do what ever you need to do to safely get the aircraft on the ground. This authorization includes bypassing any FAR's that may stand between you and a safe landing (and there is no FAR that obligates a pilot to "declare" an emergency).

What he is trying to convey, in my opinion, is the old " Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" rule we all learned in private pilot ground school. Is that dumb?

If ATC receives a call from a pilot stating " We are turning back to the airport and need to land ASAP!!!", do you really think that the controller is going to think nothing is wrong because he didn't use the word "EMERGENCY" ? No, the controller is going to clear the way because the controller has already "declared" the emergency. Is that dumb?

ATC will declare your emergency for you. My own experience: I was having radio problems one day over Charlie West ( nothing big, cutting in and out, but I was heading for Class B and needed to get it checked), told center I was landing to have our comms checked. No emergency, but when I entered base three firetrucks were waiting. They had declared it themselves. Better safe than sorry, but not really dumb.

The point is, get the airplane on the ground, don't worry about the radio terminology. Tell them what your doing, don't ask them if you can do something. Too many pilots have crashed waiting for a "clearance" after they've declared rather than just doing what they should have done. You already have a built- in "clearance" in an emergency, it's called FAR 91.3. Read it. Is it dumb?

The fact that you call the suggestion dumb only proves you've never really had an emergency. Let us know how you handle your first.

I bought this book to help get ready for an interview ( it was perfect for the task, I got the job, and highly recommend it) but must admit I really had'nt read the whole thing. But after this discussion I will because I definetely agree with Mr. Lengel on this subject.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Unless your dumb.

 

[JimNtexas]

If ATC receives a call from a pilot stating " We are turning back to the airport and need to land ASAP!!!", do you really think that the controller is going to think nothing is wrong because he didn't use the word "EMERGENCY" ? No, the controller is going to clear the way because the controller has already "declared" the emergency. Is that dumb?

ATC will declare your emergency for you.

Disco, you contradict yourself. You're all puffed up about being too manly to use the eword because you assume the controller will do it for you.

Do you want to take control of the situation or just assume the controller is going to do the right thing?

You can't claim to be taking charge of the situation if you assume that the controller will correctly interpret your non-standard language.

Perhaps you tend to panic when you have an emergency, I suppose a panicked voice is sort of a universal mayday.

he point is, get the airplane on the ground, don't worry about the radio terminology.

That takes the cake for dumbest post of the day.

When things are fine you can say whatever you please, if it takes a while for ATC to figure out what you mean it probably isn't a problem.

But when you in the mist of an emergency and are using your PIC emergency authority to deviate from what ATC expects, that is when radio discipline is most important

" We are turning back to the airport and need to land ASAP!!!", do you really think that the controller is going to think nothing is wrong because he didn't use the word "EMERGENCY" ?

If you are not in an English speaking country the controller will almost certainly have no idea of what you just said. And even if you are in the U.S., the controller may have a different notion of "ASAP" than you do.

WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WILL FOLLOWING THE PROCEDURES THAT ARE SPELLED OUT IN THE AIM AND ICAO PROCEDURES!!!!!!!!!!???????!!!!!!!! WHY ARE YOU AFRAID TO USE THE CORRECT WORDS??????

This may be a good book, but the author and Disco are dead wrong on this point.

Edited to add the follow quote from the AIM:

A pilot who encounters a distress or urgency condition can obtain assistance simply by contacting the air traffic facility or other agency in whose area of responsibility the aircraft is operating, stating the nature of the difficulty, pilot's intentions and assistance desired. Distress and urgency communications procedures are prescribed by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), however, and have decided advantages over the informal procedure described above.

Empahsis added

 

[Andy Neill]

For what it's worth, I'm betting DiscoDuck, The Man, and Richard Lengel are the same guy. On a previous post, DiscoDuck talks about having 1600 in DC-3s yet now lists only 2100TTand no mention of his DC-3. If 75% of my time were in one aircraft, I would list that under aircraft flown.

I guess it's like the points on Whose Line Is It Anyway - it really doesn't matter.