Another Beating for Eagle

[T-Gates]

Just because 400 AA guys willhave the right to flow back to Eagle, doesn't mean they all will. Look at how many USAir guys have turned down all the J4J positions.

 

[80drvr]

Just because 400 AA guys willhave the right to flow back to Eagle, doesn't mean they all will. Look at how many USAir guys have turned down all the J4J positions.

Based on the arbitration ruling, 672 AA pilots were eligible to flow back and 384 proffered. In any event, my opinion is that this will be overtaken by events and it will not be worthwhile for AMR to train, displace, recall and retrain all these guys.

 

[drag]

Igneosy,

What TWA flowbacks are you talking about? TWA and AA were conjoined into "single carrier status" well before the apr/may/jun 03 furloughs. In other words, it's all one AA/APA seniority list. If the x-twa folks weren't there (acquisition never happened) original AA pilots would still continue to flowback and take capt. seats. The only reason there aren't more native AA flowing back is because they're moving into twa md80's as the f100 retires. This is because 2/3s of the twa pilots were stapled to the bottom. Which brings an interesting question. If AA flew 87 seat mainline a/c, why do regional pilots feel they're entitled to 70-100 seat airplanes?

 

[SuperDavi8ator]

Look on the bright side. Roy Everett said AA is 500 pilots short this summer, Arpey is planning on bringing 28 MD-80's out of the desert (300+ pilots), and AA may start more Asia service next year requiring 100-300 pilots and we'll have 300 pilots retire. If any of these in addition to the retirements come to fruitition, chances are most of those flowbacks won't spend a day at AE.

This group of AA pilots were furloughed in May 2003 thru August 2003. They are all junior to the latest batch of flowbacks furloughed in Mar 2004. AA would have to recall well over 1000 pilots to reach the 5/03-8/03 furloughed pilots. They will be at Eagle for a while. They will be the most junior AA furloughees to get to Eagle (except for the handful that went in 2001). Also, the majority are ex-TWA therefore they will start at 10-15 year pay. My guess is that a greater percentage will flowback and stay because the $$ will be better. Of 200+ March 04 furloughs only 63 actually accepted a position at eagle and only 45 showed up for class. If you just go with those number that means 100+ in this batch. My guess 150+.

Based on the arbitration ruling, 672 AA pilots were eligible to flow back and 384 proffered. In any event, my opinion is that this will be overtaken by events and it will not be worthwhile for AMR to train, displace, recall and retrain all these guys.

They have to, they are junior to almost half of the guys on the street right now including over 150 flowbacks currently at Eagle. Mar 04 will be the first group to go back unless there are more furloughs.

 

[Skygod]

>> What TWA flowbacks are you talking about?

Welcome to the wacky world of smoke and mirrors that is AMR! Yes, there has been one seniority list for a while. But the Supp W/letter 3 was writen between American Airlines,the 4 carriers D.B.A. American Eagle,APA and Eagle ALPA. The seperate FAA operating certificate of TWA Airlines LLC became an issue in parsing the exact language of the side-letter -- a document that was drawn-up in haste in another time and place. There was an AA no furlough clause. No AA hiring for a while, then a steady flow-through. No TWA. No 9/11. No RJ's with less than 50 seats. Since then there have been multiple arbitration rulings and interpretations; APA against AMR, ALPA against AMR, APA and AMR together against ALPA creating hundreds and hundreds of pages of legal small print.


It's a crazy way to decide people's careers. But AMR, APA and ALPA are seemingly unable to sit together as reasonable adults, acknowledge that the world has changed, and craft one plan. They would rather spend time, money and heartbreak fighting every battle.

The status of pilots furloughed from <TWA Airlines LLC> rather than <American Airlines> is just one example.

Hope this helps.

 

[80drvr]

This group of AA pilots were furloughed in May 2003 thru August 2003. They are all junior to the latest batch of flowbacks furloughed in Mar 2004. AA would have to recall well over 1000 pilots to reach the 5/03-8/03 furloughed pilots. They will be at Eagle for a while. They will be the most junior AA furloughees to get to Eagle (except for the handful that went in 2001). Also, the majority are ex-TWA therefore they will start at 10-15 year pay. My guess is that a greater percentage will flowback and stay because the $$ will be better. Of 200+ March 04 furloughs only 63 actually accepted a position at eagle and only 45 showed up for class. If you just go with those number that means 100+ in this batch. My guess 150+.

They have to, they are junior to almost half of the guys on the street right now including over 150 flowbacks currently at Eagle. Mar 04 will be the first group to go back unless there are more furloughs.

I guess only time will tell. I'm thinking things will improve for AA significantly over the next year. I hope I'm not wrong.

 

[FO 4 Life]

If the x-twa folks weren't there (acquisition never happened) original AA pilots would still continue to flowback and take capt. seats.

That's not entirely true. If AA hadn't bought TWA, there wouldn't be such a glut of pilots. AA picked up over 2000 pilots to fly a handful of a/c. Most of TWA's birds are parked relative to staffing. Even good ole RC said AA wouldn't have had to furlough had they not bought TWA.

 

[amcnd]

Lets not get to worked up! only 19% of AA pilots that clamied they wanted to come back to Eagle are hear now. this would put it in the 80-100 # range. Most likely the company will put out a vacancy bid larger then the displacement bid so there is no movement in the down direction. Just remember the last bid displacement bid with some 60 AA pilots and 78 Eagle Jet vacancy positons. This bid had some of the most junior Eagle captains we have seen sence 9-11. The next few months will tell all. No impact on newhires as we are WAY SHORT!! still, and still hearing 70 a month this summer.


Its also noteworthy that durring the TWA acustion APA and Managment agreed TWA pilots had no right to Letter 3.

 

[FN FAL]

Lets not get to worked up! only 19% of AA pilots that clamied they wanted to come back to Eagle are hear now. this would put it in the 80-100 # range. Most likely the company will put out a vacancy bid larger then the displacement bid so there is no movement in the down direction. Just remember the last bid displacement bid with some 60 AA pilots and 78 Eagle Jet vacancy positons. This bid had some of the most junior Eagle captains we have seen sence 9-11. The next few months will tell all. No impact on newhires as we are WAY SHORT!! still, and still hearing 70 a month this summer.


Its also noteworthy that durring the TWA acustion APA and Managment agreed TWA pilots had no right to Letter 3.

so if it wasn't such a big deal, why would it have gone to court and why would it have needed federal mediation?

 

[drag]

That's not entirely true. If AA hadn't bought TWA, there wouldn't be such a glut of pilots. AA picked up over 2000 pilots to fly a handful of a/c. Most of TWA's birds are parked relative to staffing. Even good ole RC said AA wouldn't have had to furlough had they not bought TWA.

Most of this "glut" was furloughed before the apr/may/jun 03 group. To suggest that good ole RC knows what he's talking about is laughable. The post 911 AA aircraft accelereated retirements are 100 plus when adding the 727 and f100. The 737 replacements were defered. The TWA side consisted of 25 dc9, 12 767 (w/ new replacement orders), 12 757, and approx 25-30 717s. The 100 plus remaining md80s and 757s have filled the AA 727/f100 retirements quite smoothly thus saving 1000 plus AA jobs. This is hardly disputable. Suggesting there wouldn't be any AA furlough had they not bought TWA is weak statement. Is "RC" actually suggesting that AA would be the only major airline w/o any furloughs? Does AA have 1000 plus retirements to cover the dumped 727 and f100? Lastly, alot of the furlough issues should hopefully be resolved when the 70-100 seat planes come to mainline.....like the ole dc9-10 and f100/f28 served for 30 plus years. The new "C" scale. Even better would be eliminating "eagle" and having it all under AA....Eagle pilots included naturally.

 

[drag]

Its also noteworthy that durring the TWA acustion APA and Managment agreed TWA pilots had no right to Letter 3.[/QUOTE]

This is a correct statement. APA pushed legislation w/ the AMR and FAA to get "one carrier status." This allowed for the stapling of the majority of TWA pilots, dumping the union (bye bye ALPA) and allow the furloughs to begin in seniority order. Had a "single carrier" certificate not be achieved, AA would have to continue furloughing from both AA and TWA LLC seperately......many more on the AA side. In fact, after "one carrier status" AA was able to recall several 100 AA pilots that were now senior to the TWA staple point. These folks were then furloughed again at a latter date and have had flowback bids. Nevertheless, TWA pilots had no rights to Letter 3. However, there weren't anymore TWA pilots after "single carrier," just APA AA pilots on one list.

 

[igneousy2]

Igneosy,

What TWA flowbacks are you talking about? TWA and AA were conjoined into "single carrier status" well before the apr/may/jun 03 furloughs. In other words, it's all one AA/APA seniority list. If the x-twa folks weren't there (acquisition never happened) original AA pilots would still continue to flowback and take capt. seats. The only reason there aren't more native AA flowing back is because they're moving into twa md80's as the f100 retires. This is because 2/3s of the twa pilots were stapled to the bottom. Which brings an interesting question. If AA flew 87 seat mainline a/c, why do regional pilots feel they're entitled to 70-100 seat airplanes?

I am talking about all of the TWA furloughs. The whole idea of the flow-through was that Eagle pilots would get seats in every new hire class as American hired. In exchange, Eagle would give qualified crewmembers furlough protection, putting them in our most senior seats, in case of furlough. Crap deal in hind sight but that is what was agreed.

When American was intergrating TWA into one list, TWA piots were allowed to bid over to AA as vacancies became available. These classes of TWA pilots did not have any Eagle pilots in them, it was ruled that these were not new hire classes and therefore did not give Eagle pilots any rights to flow through. Since there was no right to flow through, their would be no right to flow back by TWA pilots.

To an outsider it may seem like a moot point, however, there are probably 100 or more Eagle pilots who have seniority numbers at AA senior to 90% of the TWA pilots. While AA was hiring, Eagle pilots were given seniority numbers at AA soon after they completed RJ CA IOE. They were then given a 24 month seat lock, serving as Eagle RJ captains while they accrued AA seniority. At the end of the two years they would be placed in the next available class at AA effectively starting the job with 2 years of seniority. During this TWA transition period none of these pilots that were entitled to go over to AA were allowed to go over even though they were ALL senior to the TWA pilots making the transition. TWA pilots going first violates basic seniority rules which are standard practice in the industry.

The other big fight will be when AA starts recalling.

But that's another matter altogether. The only thing eagle pilots have going for them right now is that AMR management for once is on their side albiet accidentally

Later

 

[Starlizard]

Sup W is a loser for everyone involved except the lawyers.