Another ATC Ques...

[minitour]

How short do you want it on a "short approach"??

We were passing abeam the numbers for a 2 mile left base (to be reported) and were told, "nevermind the base, just make short approach clear touch and go right traffic".

Now, I knew I'd have time to set up for the landing (CFI wanted to see a short field) so I turned base there. When we got closer I could see I was only the distance of about 2 approach lights beyond the runway (if we had approach lights) so I was pretty close in there, but still managed to hit my point (two centerline marks before the "aiming point") on airspeed (which kinda freaked me out...never turned that close before).

The insuing discussion around the pattern was that I turned way too close and should have extended for at least 1/4 mile.

I dunno...there was another cessna in the pattern and I was making a short approach for spacing around the pattern. Plus he was a 172RG and I'm in a "mighty 152"...so already he's got enough nuts to overtake me any day...and I knew I could make it safely...didn't figure I did anything wrong there.

Opinions? Specifically from ATCers, how short do you want short?

Thanks

-mini

 

[wasp junior]

First of all, if you are unsure you can comply, you can always say, "unable".

Secondly, if you try to comply, but can't pull it together in time to make a safe landing on the available runway remaining, go around. (Pay close attention to that angle of bank and airspeed.)

Lastly, I'm not aware of prescribed distances one must follow in performing a short approach, but isn't there now a required PTS task involving a power off 180 degree turn to landing from downwind simulating an engine failure? That would be a great foundation for learning how to make a short approach.

Would ATC agree that the short approach is unnecessary but makes your job a little easier if the pilot complies? I'm always glad to comply, but don't want to infer that folks still learning the ropes should automatically comply just because they are asked...

re. your specific landing today, how long is the runway?

 

[minitour]

re. your specific landing today, how long is the runway?

Over 5,000 feet, but we were simulating an obstacle at the numbers and the target to touch down was the "two centerline marks before the aiming point" or within 200 feet. So effectively about 4,000'...still plenty of room for the 152. Hell, plenty of room for a 152 twice.

Agree with everything that you said, but there was no question about being able to make it safely and being able to comply.

I guess I'm just wondering how short ATC considers short.

Like...does it depend on the aircraft (I'm assuming)? For example, the other day approach told a SWA flight to make short approach to 35R...I'd assume a short approach for a 737 is something like a 3/4 mile to 1 mile base to final? Where in a 152, if I am good with airspeed, I can turn it base at the numbers and still touch down before the "aiming point"

Just wondering for future reference if they tell me "make short approach" how short they want/need it...to help me decide whether or not I can do it. I mean...I wouldn't want to turn base at the tower and try to squeek in from that point, but...if I can extent a half mile past the threshold...that's a half mile of extra runway I get in case I screw up.

-mini

 

[DaveJ]

When asked for a short approach, I usually kill the power abeam the numbers and make a 180 from downwind to final. Not only is it good practice for an engine out in the pattern, it's also a lot of fun.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

How about turning that particular trip around the patch into a simulated engine out? Turn directly to the numbers. Forget about the imaginary obstacle and throw an unexpected real-world senario at your student. Keeps them on their toes!

 

[Vector4fun]

I guess I'm just wondering how short ATC considers short.

Like...does it depend on the aircraft (I'm assuming)? For example, the other day approach told a SWA flight to make short approach to 35R...I'd assume a short approach for a 737 is something like a 3/4 mile to 1 mile base to final? Where in a 152, if I am good with airspeed, I can turn it base at the numbers and still touch down before the "aiming point"

-mini

Mini, I'd say you understand it the same way I do. There's no "fixed" distance, just make it as short as you feel you comfortably can. I see folks who'll turn base at mid-field and land in the last 3000' of a 12000' runway. (shorter taxi)

Usually, I'll take anything like a base within a mile of the threshold. If it's really tight, I'll ask the pilot to go straight to the numbers from downwind or extended base.

 

[Bernoulli]

My understanding of a short approach is once you are abeam the #'s on downwind, or anything beyond that point, you simply start heading to the numbers as best you can given your aircraft type, airspeed and altitude.

 

[mayday1]

but isn't there now a required PTS task involving a power off 180 degree turn to landing from downwind simulating an engine failure? That would be a great foundation for learning how to make a short approach.

this is a required maneuver for the commercial single engine land rating.

 

[minitour]

this is a required maneuver for the commercial single engine land rating.

Yeah...and not as hard as it sounds...maintain altitude while attaining best glide and then land at or within 200 feet of the target....not really any other requirements...you could slip it from downwind to the runway if you want...do 360s to burn altitude...

Pretty easy maneuver for a Commercial ride...this one and "steep spirals" I can't imagine why they aren't on the PVT single ride...

Anyone know?

-mini

*edit*
PS
Thanks to all for the input!

 

[Vandal]

I would think a short approach would be called for to get you inside of traffic on final...so make it as short as you need to keep safe separation from that traffic. Piece of cake.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Depending on what type of aircraft you're doing the short approach in, i.e. in an Arrow, when you reduce the power abeam the numbers, you need to start headin' for the runway. This will bring you fairly close on your base, all depending on how far out your downwind is. And as stated above, it's really good practice should you need some glider work. And I want to emphasize, have fun, but more so, be safe.


-W

 

[mattpilot]

"short" can be as short as you want to make it. short is anything less than normal.

Once i was told to do a short approach i made the 1000ft markers my base leg, landed about 3000ft down the runway and stopped within 600ft to get off at the next taxiway. Total length of runway was 5000ft.

Was quite cool.... 3 planes were holding at the beginning of the runway and were told that aircraft is on "short"final. Thing is, we never flew past them, since my base leg was 1000ft further down...

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

when i ask for a short approach it is usually to speed up the process and get that plane in before the on on final. I don't care how close it is as long as when i ask for it and you acknowledge and if i have to send the guy around be hind you then i get a little pissed. So however close you feel comfortable, if you can't beat them in then don't take it, just ask to extend and get a resequence.