And so it begins... UAir East pilots protest

[Wiskey Driver]

No really,

Who gives a crap, Usairways is worse than many regional airlines. Thank ALPO for that. Why would anyone stick around that crapfest?


Next question.

Not sure what your point is but do you work here?? If not how would you know anything about the inside of this place??

 

[Green]

1 Doug and company are skilled in the art of low ball tactics. "



2 "I also have it on very good authority that the company will protect it'self in that it will place a/c where ever it needs in order to be successful. "


WD.

1) Unfortunately so is our JNC. We ask for 165/hr while AA is asking for what, 240/hr? Not to mention they have a retirement, work rules, and medical.

2) What are you talking about with the statement that the company will protect itself by placing a/c where it needs to? I don't follow you. Are you saying he'll move aircraft between certificates??????

 

[AA717driver]

Boy, this post really lured some cranks outta their holes...

Good post, Lear. Thanks. TC

P.S.--Not all of us have access to the Pittsburgh Daily News or whatever it's called.

 

[Hpilot]

Not sure what your point is but do you work here?? If not how would you know anything about the inside of this place??

He's obviously someone that either got turned down by US or AWA. I'd just ignore.

 

[PHXFLYR]

He works for AirTran now. Ahhh remember the roaring 90s when people actually were leaving AirTran to come to US Airways?

Good times.

But dumb people....


PHXFLYR

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Hey, don't shoot the messenger.

"I don't make the news, I just report it."

Incidentally, if you don't like what I post, there's this neat little feature called "ignore".

Otherwise, just don't read it. All it takes is a little will power, which is why you don't see me on the other thread I said I was done with. It's called an "unsubscribe from discussion" link in the emails you get.

In the "US Airways Loosing Respect" thread I called you out. After making ignorant comments concerning the seniority arbitration I asked you if you read the arbitrators explaination.

Have you? BTW, if the answer is no, quit posting your nonsense.

Go back to whatever airline you fly for and let us worry about the new list, ok?

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Lear70, here is some research I've done. I went back to a few threads and quoted some of the bologna you've posted:

I have no dog in this fight either - my old man retired UAir about 3 years ago.

If you don't "have a dog in this fight" why do you keep posting your devisive opinions?

You somehow think that the furloughed UAir guys should go BENEATH the 20-something that has 30+ years still left?

And that's fair HOW?

I got news for you...not all new hires in the last 4 years are "20 somethings." But for those of us who are...am I supposed to say "you should come out of furlough and be senior to me because, gosh darnit, you're older and you deserve it" or "I'll just spend 8 more years as an FO to help you out"?

If they can get an extra 3-5 years out of it in their current seats, then good for them, especially with the ME-ME-ME attitude going on in the West (not all of you, but enough to p*ss me off and I don't even work there).

Again, who is getting bumped out of their seat? And as for the "me, me, me attitude"...isn't that what the East guys are displaying when they demand DOH? So I'm selfish because I want relative integration but they are not selfish when they want DOH?

I also don't necessarily agree that UAir was going to liquidate. There was never any hard proof of that, but evidently enough inuendo and suggestive evidence that the Arbitrator was convinced.

You don't know what you are talking about. Again, you need to read the Arbitrator's explaination. He didn't estimate where the two airlines would be in the future. He looked at their present state (as of May 2005) and noted that AWA was doing well and US Airways was not.

I wouldn't say the AWA pilots should have been stapled or furloughed, but without fences they just got handed a lottery ticket worth an extra $1 Million on their career earnings.

AWA pilots? There's no "probably" about it. Like I said, the average AWA pilot will make over a million more over their career because of this ruling.

What is your source of this info? I'm not interested in speculations. The average AWA pilot? Aren't all of us westies "average AWA pilots"? Who on the West is not an "average AWA pilot"? Define "average AWA pilot" please.

Like I said... you guys want to bash the UAir guys for the way they behaved at the table, then you come out with this righteous crap that says you're somehow justified getting the huge windfall the arbitrator gave you.

Huh? There was no windfall.

You're not making your pilot group look very good. But then again, we DO live in the "Me-me-me" era of aviation. Maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.

Talk about righteous crap.

I honestly don't know if I agree with that. US pilots' career expectations, assuming the carrier would have remained in business, would probably be much better than they will be once they're bumped out of their widebody seats in the last 5-10 years of their career.

I want you to cite to me exactly the source of this seat displacement stuff. If you can't then quit posting it.

Again, great way to split hairs and not really address the issues. Your debating skills (or lack thereof) are absolutely astounding.

Geesh. Look who's talking. I've called you out before on other threads and so far the only response I've gotten was "if you don't like my post then use the ignore feature..."

Poor reasoning? Your lack of solid facts in your "debate" don't support such a claim.

Gentlemen, and ladies, I'm sorry you have to deal with someone slinging mud with little facts or solid debate to add. You have to understand, PCL Dude is coming from a regional where I regularly rocked the boat against unsafe management practices... and succeeded, and is having a slight inferiority problem after I left for greener pastures.

Most of the stuff you post on here is your unsupported opinion, yet, you have the nerve to tell someone that they have "no solid facts in their "debate"".

Again, I work for AirTran. I never worked for UAir. My dad is retired UAir (has been for a while), and I don't know anyone there anymore. I don't have an agenda and don't "want it my way" or "to benEfit my people".

You don't have an agenda? Why do you keep mentioning your dad? Are we supposed to think you're a credible source if info because your dad worked there?

Personally, I'd just take all my sick time, accrued vacation, spend it all while applying at Netjets when I was approaching the date where a West guy would be able to bump me out of my seat, hopefully benefiting from some type of retirement deal in the new contract (something is better than nothing), then leave for a NJA or another corporate gig.

Do I need to ask again?

Can you PROVE they were on the verge of death?

Can you prove they weren't?

No one allows a major with that many leases to just shut down. Nearly destroyed some banks back in the day when EAL and PanAm did. Bankers are smarter than that.

Are you kidding? US Airways was probably grasping to hold on to those leases. Do you know how many operators overseas are willing to pay higher leases for 737's and 757's?

No one wants to use the FACTS behind the situation, they simply want to use what they "feel" or "believe" would have happened.

I've been crushing you with the facts.



Lear70, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. But you have made so many comments concerning things that just aren't true. I'm gonna call you on it every time.

 

[Lear70]

If you don't "have a dog in this fight" why do you keep posting your devisive opinions?

Because I have these little things called "morals" and "ethics" that make me irritated when someone gets hosed in this profession. Do a little more research back and you'll see me get just as upset when Gojets started up, when Freedom started undercutting Mesa, etc, etc. and I don't work at either of THOSE carriers either.

Again, who is getting bumped out of their seat? And as for the "me, me, me attitude"...isn't that what the East guys are displaying when they demand DOH? So I'm selfish because I want relative integration but they are not selfish when they want DOH?

Again, you're just talking, not listening.

I've said REPEATEDLY, though it's convenient for you to ignore it, that the East guys were WRONG to demand DOH, were WRONG to try to hose you guys that way, and now have paid for it. I personally believe part of the arbitrator's award was to spank the East guys for their lack of cooperation.

And, for the record, the *possibility* exists, when age 65 ruling gets passed, if the widebody aircraft are moved, only the top 517 pilots are protected in the East. I can't find ANY mention that the rest of the East pilots are protected if the aircraft are moved to a different domicile.

So, if they're moved, it goes to the new seniority list for bidding rights onto them. Bids that pilot #518 and below on the UAir list believed they'd be moving into.

You don't know what you are talking about. Again, you need to read the Arbitrator's explaination. He didn't estimate where the two airlines would be in the future. He looked at their present state (as of May 2005) and noted that AWA was doing well and US Airways was not.

I've read the explanation, and I believe it proves he lacks enough knowledge of the industry to make some of the claims he made. If he used an outside aviation consultant to come up with those numbers, I would be more inclined to believe his base assumptions, but I failed to see him reference one, if it existed.

What is your source of this info? I'm not interested in speculations. The average AWA pilot? Aren't all of us westies "average AWA pilots"? Who on the West is not an "average AWA pilot"? Define "average AWA pilot" please.

I'm basing it on YOUR existing pay scales, pre-merger versus UAir pay scales pre-merger (post bankruptcy rates), and where those pay scales for widebody flying are likely to return to.

It's pretty easy math. The "average" AWA pilot is someone who still has 20+ years left to their career. Most of you do. Therefore you will, in all likelihood, see widebody command with your seniority integration, and be able to hold it for several years.

That pay is higher than your existing narrowbody pay scale. Only by $22 now, but probably closer to $30+ by the time it's done. Times 80 hours a month is $2,400 a month, $52,500 a year, for the last 10 years of your career is over half a million bucks. And that's just the existing post-bankruptcy pay rate and doesn't include 401k matching (B-fund, whatever) as a percentage on top of that.

Get the math, yet?

Geesh. Look who's talking. I've called you out before on other threads and so far the only response I've gotten was "if you don't like my post then use the ignore feature..."

No, you haven't called me out, you've insulted me. There's a difference.

Post legitimate questions, you get legitimate answers.

Most of the stuff you post on here is your unsupported opinion, yet, you have the nerve to tell someone that they have "no solid facts in their "debate"".

And yet you DON'T have any solid facts.

You've asked a bunch of questions in this thread, and stated your "beliefs" without referencing specific sections of the award, nor have you posted any proof to the contrary regarding the age of East pilots and their proximity to retirement, versus West pilots.

Don't disparage me for not providing "facts" when you've provided none of your own.

You don't have an agenda? Why do you keep mentioning your dad? Are we supposed to think you're a credible source if info because your dad worked there?

I don't keep mentioning him. Other people bring him up and keep slamming me with it. Use your reading skills. I only respond with that when addressed with that.

Can you prove they weren't?

Demanding proof when having none of your own is a very feeble argument.

Are you kidding? US Airways was probably grasping to hold on to those leases. Do you know how many operators overseas are willing to pay higher leases for 737's and 757's?

Proof, proof, proof.

PROVE to me that UAir was "grasping to hold on to those leases". PROVE to me, in writing, with proof that a lender had called the leases or was shopping them.

Your LACK of proof for YOUR claims makes YOUR assertions here no more or less believable than mine.

I've been crushing you with the facts.

No, you have YET to post ONE VERIFIABLE FACT. You've done plenty of slamming of me while referencing the award, but have yet to quote the award to PROVE me wrong. THAT would be a FACT.

Everything else is simply your OPINION. Maybe you should learn the difference.

Lear70, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. But you have made so many comments concerning things that just aren't true. I'm gonna call you on it every time.

If you do, better be prepared to back them up with FACTS that are verifiable, from a third, independent source, that we can check.

Otherwise, I'm going to continue believing the way I do, based on the award and the career expectations the West now enjoys that they had no reasonable expectation to prior to the merger.

I'm not saying anyone is a "bad" person at AWA for that; I'm simply saying the arbitrator's ruling was wrong and a bunch of guys in the East are now screwed, many close to the end of their career with no options, and it's very unfortunate and sad to see guys who had been beat to death get beat a little harder, then even sadder to see guys on here acting self-righteous about it. uke:

 

[Captain X]

You two should get a room!

 

[Britpilot]

You two should get a room!

Or a divorce.