An overview of corp. pilot requirements

[Archer]

I'm still in the process of thinking whether I should venture into professional aviation, and if I do, I would most probably go corporate, as most other flying jobs don't interest me (i.e. cargo, major and regional)

I was just wondering, how much time on average it takes to get a job from the time you have your Commercial. How many hours (total, turbine, multi, jet, PIC etc) are usually required...2000 tt? 3000tt? I know the more hours and more experience, the better chance of getting a good job, but around what mark is it usually? Is a 3000 hour pilot with say 1000 jet, 2000 PIC a "qualified" pilot for a "good, well paying" job?

Or is 4000 more like it...or 5000, or will 2000 tt suffice?

Again, more ratings, the better. But is usually a Commercial good enough? or do you need ATP? and obvisouly you are going to need the type of the airplane you are going to fly, but is having a large range of type ratings much better? eg. Lear Jet type, Citation type and Falcon type better than just a lear type?

Will it take around 3 years to get a decent job? 5? 7?

What kind of corporate jobs are there out there...mainly businesses that own a jet and you fly for them...135 charter? Fractionals? what are the major job types?

And finally, how do non-US corp. pilot makets look? Especially European one...

I still have about a year to decide whether to take pro flying seriously...

the main problem I would have would be that I would feel like I wasted 4 years of my life trying to get an Engineering degree instead of having had my CFI and built some hours by the end of those 4 years...

thanx

Archer

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Sure there are good corporate jobs out there, but be advised they are few and far between.

An ATP is usually the MINIMUM, plus a few type-ratings is the norm I would say. 3000-4000 hours is maybe a good number..
all this varies greatly with who you know...If DADDY is the CEO maybe you get a break.!

Dont even consider any good aviation job without a 4 year degree. This is WAY more important then your CFI and a few hours (you will get plenty of those) Does not really matter what the degree is in, I suggest something that will serve as a backup if you get sick of flying or lose medical, etc....maybe Finance or Business? Something you can use to go sell shoes or something...

Just curious, why are you set on corporate? I do it, and I like it very much I guess.....but why are you discluding being a major airline pilot? HANDS DOWN, I dont care what anyone ever says, beng a senior major airline pilot is he best job in this industry. Its a hard long road, but if eduacation, age, and time are on your side, GO FOR IT. Dont let the furloughs, bad media, failing airlines, bad economy scare you. It will all recover, its a very cyclical industry.

Again reading this board, you will see people think corporate is great now because the airlines are failing rapidly - but this will all change eventually and being number 1 in senority flying the biggest International airliner and the the best global airline pays REAL well and gives you a lot of free time to enjoy your bucks!
Again, maybe a long shot, but you should try!!

Just an opinion, hope it helps

 

[Archer]

I am not interested in regionals or majors, just because of the type of flying they do and the planes they fly. I personally would not like to ever fly anything bigger than a Long-range Business Jet. I don't think I would like flying big planes. I also don't like Part 121 flying. It would (I think) enjoy the lack of a "pre-established schedule" for my flights. I also love small airports, and would love to be able to fly in Class E airfields, something which a 737 or 757 can't do.

I fact, I don't know if even corp. flying is for me, as I've been spoiled in life and don't know if I could be at the "orders and 100% service" of some rich exec, as I would like to be in his position someday.

But if I don't go pro, I doubt I'll ever fly anything more than a Seneca or Baron 58, and a I really would like to experience jet flight at some point in my life...

So, with my current degree, I could go become an Engineer, and perhaps get an MBA and become go up the ranks in a company and make a lot of money, and buy my own plane and fly it...

I dont know...this is an internal debate that is been going on since I started flying...and my parents are against me becoming a pro pilot...as they think they don't get paid enough...

Archer

 

[Benzene]

Go for the money if you have any doubts

If I had to play the game again, I would still walk the same road The only difference would be that I would of started a lot earlier in life. It has not been an easy road and I am not yet established; though happy to have a flying job when all of my other buddys had to go LOWS. They in return have bragged about how nice it is to have money in the bank and not living day by day pay check to pay check. Do as much research as you can and ask as many questions before you decide to sink 30K to work for 1500/MO or less for 4-6 years.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

You are a junior in college and worried about what Mummy and Father want you to do for a living????

"Geeves, lord forbid junior only makes 250K a year as a lowly peasent airline pilot" "We couldn't tell the neighbors"

Good luck, sounds like there are many issues there!!

 

[trainerjet]

I am not interested in regionals or majors, just because of the type of flying they do and the planes they fly. I personally would not like to ever fly anything bigger than a Long-range Business Jet. I don't think I would like flying big planes. I also don't like Part 121 flying. It would (I think) enjoy the lack of a "pre-established schedule" for my flights. I also love small airports, and would love to be able to fly in Class E airfields, something which a 737 or 757 can't do.

To me, a "long-range business jet" would be a BBJ, a Falcon 900EX, a G-V, etc. I certainly would classify these as "big planes". You also state you don't like Part 121 flying. How do you know that you don't like it if you have never done it? BTW, I don't think the "long range business jets" go into too many Class E airports, either.

I think your posts indicate a lot of indicision, which stems from inexperience and not having adequate information to make a good decision, but they also indicate, at least to me, that you are not really cut out to be a professional pilot. While I would never want to discourage anyone from entering the profession, I think you should just go ahead and "become an engineer and go up the ranks in a company and make alot of money". I think both you and your parents would be happier.

 

[stardog]

If you're going into aviation for the money, then you're going into it for the wrong reason. You'd be better off as an Engineer.

I left engineering despite the high pay, because I love flying. I would rather spend my time in the sky than waste another second in an office staring at a computer screen, but that's just me...

Aviation is not an easy road. It will take you a lot of commitment, time, and living at low pay to get to the 3000 or 4000 hour mark. Only go into it if you can't imagine doing anything else.

 

[banned username 2]

To me, a "long-range business jet" would be a BBJ, a Falcon 900EX, a G-V, etc. I certainly would classify these as "big planes". BTW, I don't think the "long range business jets" go into too many Class E airports, either.

I think your posts indicate a lot of indicision, which stems from inexperience and not having adequate information to make a good decision, but they also indicate, at least to me, that you are not really cut out to be a professional pilot.

Well I have taken our Falcon 900EX's into plenty of "Class E" airports... So yes, the long range corporate aircraft do go into them...

I have to agree with everyone else... Archer you sound like a nice guy, but not cut out for a career as a Professional Pilot... You are way too unsure about it... which is fine, nothing wrong with that... I would become an engineer, move up the company and hold some prestigious position to make your family proud... I don't think you would enjoy the indecisive career of a Professional Pilot. It is a very long and hard road...

You have been asking the same questions for months on this board... you keep getting the same answers, which appearantly you don't like, hence you keep asking... The answers are and will remain the same... There is no fast track, the CERTAINLY are no guarantees of reaching your goals, the pay sucks for the first 5-7 years minimum... Furloughs, layoffs, mergers, backruptcies, terrorism, etc... its all part of the equation... just the facts of life in a Professional Pilots career...

Don't mean to discourage... but if you were cut out to be a Professional Pilot, there would be absolutely no doubt whatsoever in your mind....

Good Luck!

 

[Archer]

Originally posted by Gulfstream 200

You are a junior in college and worried about what Mummy and Father want you to do for a living????

"Geeves, lord forbid junior only makes 250K a year as a lowly peasent airline pilot" "We couldn't tell the neighbors"

Good luck, sounds like there are many issues there!!

Yes, I DO respect the opinion of my parents, who have 30 more years of experience in life.

What is the percentage of major airline captains who make 250K in the professional pilot community? How about Engineers with technical Masters and MBA degrees in the Engineering community?

Originally posted by trainerjet
I think your posts indicate a lot of indicision, which stems from inexperience and not having adequate information to make a good decision, but they also indicate, at least to me, that you are not really cut out to be a professional pilot.

Hey, I'm only trying to make the biggest decision in my life

Originally posted by stardog
If you're going into aviation for the money, then you're going into it for the wrong reason. You'd be better off as an Engineer.

I left engineering despite the high pay, because I love flying. I would rather spend my time in the sky than waste another second in an office staring at a computer screen, but that's just me...

Aviation is not an easy road. It will take you a lot of commitment, time, and living at low pay to get to the 3000 or 4000 hour mark. Only go into it if you can't imagine doing anything else.

I'm not going into aviation for money, but obvisouly, as any person who values the life of his or her family, who wants to profide a good education to his children, be able to take his wife to vacations and buy her presents, and make the family live off comfortably, OBVIOULSY money is a factor, and obvisouly I'm going to be thinking about it when I decide what career path I want to take.

The "my office is a state-of-the-art cockpit and not a cubicle underground a mile away from the surface" is a common one, and I see how it might be more fascinating workign at FL 430 rather than undeground, but there are engineers who spend their time around state-of-the-art technology, use it, do fun testing and are at the forefront of research and technology, and dont' only stare at a computer screen.

I had not realized how hard it was to become a pro pilot until i started posting on aviation message boards online (not only this one). There seem to be 2000 hour pilots complaining about not being able to find a job! 2000 hours! I can't imagine how many those are, it's like saying Jupiter is a billion kilometers away from earth, and the Sun is 150 million km away. Well, Jupiter is further by quite a bit...and the moon is really really close, at 385,000 km. Well, just a bunch of zeros as a difference.

I'm at 35 hours, I don't know when I"m ever going to get past this PPL training, and when I might actually feel comfortable flying x/c's and have 3 digit total time hours. 200 hours seem so much to me, I can't imagine 2000 hours. Well, it must take years of intensive flight instructing obviously, as it seems, everyone keeps saying, you have to become a CFI, as everybody does, to build hours, and it is very good experience, and make you a better pilot.

Originally posted by Falcon Capt
Don't mean to discourage... but if you were cut out to be a Professional Pilot, there would be absolutely no doubt whatsoever in your mind...

I don't think that's possible. How can someone know what he or she wants to do from the very beginning? There are literally hundreds of thousands of jobs out there in the world. Some pay you a buck a day, some 5000 bucks/hour. Some are prestigious, some are not. Some are fun, some are not. Some are dangerous, some are not.

I had problems deciding even what Engineering branch to go into when I first ventured into college. I was a hair close to going into Electrical Engineering, and now, I thank God that I never did go into it, because I have some EE courses and material in what I don now, and I dislike it big time. I know one thing about myself, and that is that I love aircraft and spacecraft.

If you asked me what my dream job would be, it would be the Pilot in Command of a aerospace vehicle than would shuttle people to and from the moon, and having designed the thing myself. Well let's leave impossible dreams in the dream world.

Now, I love airplanes and spacecraft. I just don't know whether I want to fly them or design them. It seems that if I had to do both, I would have to become an Engineer and fly on the side.

Yet, no matter how successful I become, I don't think I would be albe to fly multi-million dollar jets anytime soon, and life is precious, and every second of it counts, and should be enjoyed, if you are able to.

I love flying. I discovered this when I started traing for my PPL, and enjoy it every time I go up there. I do enjoy Aero engineering work too...

all I'm trying to do is get an insight, and advice, from this pilto community that seems extremely experienced. I see people that have 5000 and 7000 hours of flight time, have ATP and type ratings of all kinds, and have flown dozens of planes of every kind.

I'm sure they should be able to help me decide. There aren't that many other places out there, in RL, where you get to hear the opinons of dozens of experienced pilots all at once.

Though yoru CFI and other pilots at your FBO are the best/first rescource anyone should look at...

Archer

 

[banned username 2]

Archer...

Do yourself a favor.. Become an Engineer and fly on the side.. I have read most of your posts and you are so torn there is no way you will ride out the "up's & down's" of a Professional Pilot's career... I don't mean this as an insult in any way... just stating the facts as you have presented...

Put your heart into being the best d@mn Engineer you can be, you will make good money and could probably buy yourself an "Archer" or C-172 or whatever you want and fly for pleasure... you will be much happier... And well you are at it, could you PLEASE design me an SSBJ (Super Sonic Business Jet) that is affordable and has low compression technology to minimize "Boom" and allow me to cruise at Mach 2 over populated areas?

Anyhow... Continue the engineering... You will not like the life of a pilot... Oh, and about your parents having 30 years more experience, you are right, they are a wealth of knowledge, but unless they are intimately familiar with the aviation industry, don't let them guide your decisions too much.... I wouldn't be where I am at today if I blindly listened to my parents just because they were "Old and all knowing"...

Good Luck!

 

[Archer]

Well, Falcon Capt, it looks like Engineering as a primary job and leasure flying on the side might well be it for me.

I seems, looking at logic at least, it seems the best thing to do.

See, if I get my BS in Aero Engineering, and then venture into years of training and work as a CFI to then try getting a job as a professional pilot, I might as well succeed, but then, if ANYTHING at all goes wrong, it will be hard to fall back on Aerospace Engineering, for time means a lot in that industry. A 26 year old with a Master in Aero Engineering and 3 years of experience will be 200 times more qualified for a job I would be applying at the age of 26 for example, after having flown for 5 years, and decided flying is not for me. That's because aerospace companies don't give a crap whether you have flown a Baron 58 for 700 hours, it won't help you design a turbine blade.

But on the other hand, if I get my Masters in Aero, and find a job and work a couple of years, and then find out I would like to try to fly pro, then I would have more of a chance, as switching jobs TO professional aviation is not a new thing, and many people seem to have done it. All you need is the ratings and the experience, besides that, you could be 50 and have been a janitor for all they care...

The only reason I was keeping pro aviation as an option, is because being a non-US citizen, finding a job in the Aerospace industry as an engineer is going to be extremely tough, that's why I wanted to leave the flying career as an option, even though I could probably go back to Europe and try getting a job as an engineer there...

It seems that the road ahead is a hard one, wether I try to look for a job as an Aero engineer, or go down the difficult path of a low-pay CFI for years and build up flight time...they seem both equally hard...

but as an Engineering degree will be more useful for an Engineering job rather than a pilot job, I'll most probably go into Engineering, so that I won't have wasted 6 years of my life (includes Masters)

Meanwhile though, finances permitting, I will be trying to get my ratings up to CFI alongside my degree...

we'll see what happens in a couple of years...

thanx for your patience and advice....

Archer

 

[Archer]

oh and I forgot

And well you are at it, could you PLEASE design me an SSBJ (Super Sonic Business Jet) that is affordable and has low compression technology to minimize "Boom" and allow me to cruise at Mach 2 over populated areas?

It's funny, because I am actually part of a student design group working with Boeing Engineers on a design of an SSBJ. We are probably going as far as making a little model of it and doing wind tunnel tests, but we are at least going to get a written design report done.

I believe the target price is 60 million, the range at least 5000 nm, subsonic AND supersonic cruise capability at Mach 1.6 minimum...with noise and airport runway length restrictions, so it is able to land at Class E airports etc...

The main problem is the propulsion system...the F22's P&W F119 engine or the Eurofighter's EJ200 engines would be awesome, as they allow the two fighters the ability to cruise at Mach 1.5 without afterburners...but they are also the two most classified pieces of equipment out there...I doubt that the P&W would let us borrow the 35,000+ lb thrust engines

But we're thinking really hard

Archer

 

[bigD]

Archer - I really have to say that Falcon Capt is right. You just don't sound like you have the "passion". I bet you like flying very, very, very much. But if you're even considering being an engineer instead of a pilot, I tend to think you lack the crazy passion that tends to be necessary to really make it in this field (assuming you're not independently wealthy to begin with!).

Trust me, man - this is not at all intended to be an insult. I'm just calling it like I see it. I've been brought up in an engineering/computer atmosphere my whole life. I'm both a physics and computer science major, and enjoy both very much. But I'd take a $25K job flying rubber dildos around the U.S. in a Navajo before I'd take a $150K engineering or CS job. I wouldn't even think about it. I make pretty exceptional money now as a programmer, but I constantly sit and salivate at the chance to make a QUARTER OF THAT as a CFI once I graduate. I just can't wait to do it.

Anyway, I always hate to tell anyone, "Nah...do something else. This isn't for you." But in this case, it sounds like you're better off making the big cash as an engineer and simply flying whenever you want recreationally.

 

[Archer]

Well, I guess destiny shall have the final word.

Perhaps I won't be able to find a job that I like as and aero engineer, and that will be the final motiviation I need to enter the pro pilot world...

it is going to be very hard to find a job in the US, and though I probably can find one in Europe, it will be perhaps equally hard to find something that interests me there, as the Aerospace Industry is not the same as in the US...

so I'll get my ratings up to ATP and fly for fun, and then, if the day comes, I'll have the ratings needed to start down that path...if not, I'll be a highly qualified leisure pilot...

Archer

 

[banned username 2]

so I'll get my ratings up to ATP and fly for fun, and then, if the day comes, I'll have the ratings needed to start down that path...if not, I'll be a highly qualified leisure pilot...

You DO realize the ATP requires a MINIMUM of 1,500 hours... thats a lot of time to pay for on your own... Realistically you could get up through your Commercial Single & Multi-Engine and your CFI, CFI-I and CFI-ME all by the time you have around 300 hours...

Good Luck to you!

 

[Geigo]

Have the best of both worlds!

Archer,

Go for the best of both worlds. I grew up with a guy that got his private at 17 and when he went to college he got his degree in Aerospace Eng. I haven't talked to him in a long time, but a couple years back he was on the cover of GA Flyer as the flight test engineer in the Maverick or Eclipse can't remember which. All by the age of about 26.

Now, I have no idea how many positions like that there may be, but something to look into. You will "make the big bucks" and still get the joy of getting out of the cubicle and going flying. Maybe not as the pilot, but still flying and most likely will even get some stick time.


Geigo

 

[Archer]

Yeah, I am aware of the 1500 hour requirement. I wasn't implying I would do this within the next two years or something. Hell, if I get my commercial within the next two years that will be an achievement for me, along school.

I was thinking long term, and if you have some flying buddies, and lots of friends, it's not impossible to fly very frequently. Renting the Archer with two other friens would cost 23 bucks an hour for me (wet). With three others (for local flights and less fuel) it would cost about 18 bucks/hour.

I'm not saying this is totally cheap (and taking three peple with me on the Archer is probably a bad idea, even if it's within W&B limits), but it's better than the 100+ bucks I pay now for training...

well anyways, these are long term goals. my PPL and IR are shorter term goals.

But thanx for the advice. I just want to go out there and fly safely with friends and have fun and visit new places...that's all. I don't care about ratings, the reason I want to have them all is to keep the learning process going, and improving myself as a pilot while I learn from experience....

Archer

 

[CRJ puppy]

Archer...

Just to reiterate: Follow all the good advice here.

With 2000 hrs. of flight time I just left a flight instructing job where I made $45,000 to start training in the CRJ-200 where I will make $18,000 (if I'm lucky) the first year. How do you think that affects one's quality of life?
I had to move from a part of the country where a 2 bedroom duplex was $550/month to a section where a 1 bedroom apt. is $1000. All this was necessary in order to advance my career and get more experience.
I have $10,000 in credit card debt remaining from when I earned my certificates 3 yrs. ago and drive a car with over 120,000 miles on it. I'm sleeping only 5-6 hrs. a night while I am in training and go no where except to the training center.
And I love flying.
I do not believe that this lifestyle is for you. Yet this is not an atypical aviation career path. Is this how you anticipate your aviation career?

BTW, life is just a series of mistakes (or small "adjustments"). Don't spend too much time agonizing about what decisions to make. Make a good decision and move on. If later you find it was an incorrect decision, so be it. That is how one gets 30 yrs of experience and wisdom. The amount of energy you've put in writing these posts would have been better spent in your studies (aviation or enegineering). Your indecision reflects an inability to analyze and make a decision and stick with it that could kill you in aviation. Be cautious.

Blue skies........

 

[imploded]

Archer,

I'm going to jump in with everyone else here -- I'm an established engineer (head of engineering, actually); I'm young (20's); I have, if I want, a good track to top level management in my industry.

I worked really hard to get here, hating it the whole time. I am here because this is where, in many repsects, my family wanted me to be. I always loved engineering, but I hate the profession with a passion sometimes. I'm now working, with whatever I have (there is a policy in my house -- FFF, food, flying, fuel -- everything else is secondary) to get my fixed + helicopter ratings. I want to fly lifeflight for a hospital. I don't care how little money that I will make -- I can figure all of that out as each situation presents itself.

You seem pretty set on doing the MBA, engineering program. If that is what you want (or you want to do what your parents want) -- just do it. You'll have to say (like I have had to say) "Screw off guys, this is my life, thanks for the advice, but I'm going to hoe my own row". It's tough, but if your parents love you, they'll never stop supporting you (I was lucky in that respect, I guess).

Good luck, whatever you choose.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[Archer]

With 2000 hrs. of flight time I just left a flight instructing job where I made $45,000 to start training in the CRJ-200 where I will make $18,000 (if I'm lucky) the first year. How do you think that affects one's quality of life?

Wow, 45 grand as a CFI? Is this airline instructing or Private and Commerical students instructing?

Well, after having read hundreds of posts by dozens of pilots, and articles all over the place, I have come to understand how things are in the aviation industry. It's a hard and long road to get to a position where you get a good pay. It seems it usually takes some 10 years of low pay, high work-load jobs, and periods of unemployment. I understand that.

And pilots say, you gotta love flying professionallly A LOT to be able to deal with the "suffering" of getting there.

As many people said, they have had computer programming jobs that paid twice and three times as much as flying, but they would give up that anyday to get a low paying flying job.

And for those who say I probably could not become a pro pilot, I understand why you say that, and I agree to a certain degree.

The biggest reason is that I've been spoiled, and never had financial problems in my life. So going through years of low-pay flying jobs would be a BIG jump...

Plus, I have an added difficulty that 95% of the pilots on this board don't have. I'm not a citizen or permanent resident...yet I would love to fly in the US because aviation seems to have a huge market here, and GA and corporate is huge.

Well thanx for the advice anyways. I probably need to talk face to face to my CFI and see what he thinks of my situation. He has worked for some airline I think, or commuter or something, I need to ask him about that...

ne ways, we'll see how things turn out. Maybe in a couple of years I'll be still posting here, and I might post as a part-time pilot/full time engineer, or a full time pilot....or all the way from Europe...

who knows, but I know for sure that I'll be flying, whether professionally or for leisure...I'll be flying...

Archer