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An article that is a must read!!

KCPilot

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We will get nothing back with Obama in office. Sure he may be more pro labor. But he is well on his way to making the economy worse than it already is.

Me, I would rather have a president who is no friend to labor but brings us economic strength and does not want to bring socialism to our country.

Obama will set labor back even further that Bush did, and the problem is the whole country will go down the tubes with us.

Right on!
 

Smarta$$

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With Obama in office (and gaining a second term coming up here), we all have a better chance of getting some of it back. When Bush the 2nd started his term, he stated "There will be NO strikes by Major Airlines this Summer (2001)." Obama will at least listen to the unions, and appoint Federal Mediators that are not pro-management Republicans. But, timing is everything, and if oil is again at $140 a barrel when you try to negotiate, it will be tough to gain a lot back. Obama is definately better than the McCain alternative when it comes to airlines.


Bye Bye--General Lee

+3. Trickle down, does not work.
 

HA25

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We will get nothing back with Obama in office. Sure he may be more pro labor. But he is well on his way to making the economy worse than it already is.

Me, I would rather have a president who is no friend to labor but brings us economic strength and does not want to bring socialism to our country.

Obama will set labor back even further that Bush did, and the problem is the whole country will go down the tubes with us.


Dude, it CAN'T get any worse than Bush left it.. It simply can't! Obama's budget at least recognized the REAL cost of this ill conceived war of Chaney's.
 

N2264J

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... I went straight to the captain as ASA (my airline) was at that time prohibited from being in their J/S due to political issues stemming from our voting in ALPA...

Would you mind telling us that story?

I'm trying to remember if the DMEC actually secured a reciprocol jumpseat
agreement by 1997.

Thanks
 

HA25

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Would you mind telling us that story?

I'm trying to remember if the DMEC actually secured a reciprocol jumpseat
agreement by 1997.

Thanks

Short of it,.. George and John (owners of ASA at that time, or something like 70% of the shares)... having a strong relationship with DAL management simply prohibited DAL from j/s on ASA, and thus made it impossible for us to get a reciprocal agreement.. but most DAL pilots would ignore it, and let you on... after a while, George and John applied pressure to DAL management to codify it as against the rules to allow us on.... and that's when this women got her sense of "empowerment"..

Those were sad times.. we had a chance to nip the "regional" whipsaw and subsequent boom in RJ's and keep mainline growing for meaningful, good paying jobs at that time due to a lot of understanding at DAL as to our "common" interest.. However, ONEALPA and a few other things have since squandered that trust and mutual respect.
 

landlover

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the economic down turn has already slowed. some analyst even say it has turned around.
 

nimtz

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I've come to realize something about CAL that I didn't full really appreciate before I worked here. Despite all the Fortune 500 Awards and 'Worst to First' lingo, Frankie Lorenzo mentality dominates middle management. This is precisely why the crap you see above happens. I'm tired of it and I think an awful lot of us are at our boiling point. This place needs a serious corporate culture makeover cause like Barrack said you can't put lipstick on a pig...
 

N2264J

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Those were sad times.. we had a chance to nip the "regional" whipsaw and subsequent boom in RJ's and keep mainline growing for meaningful, good paying jobs at that time due to a lot of understanding at DAL as to our "common" interest.. However, ONEALPA and a few other things have since squandered that trust and mutual respect.

Allow me to unburden you from that idea.

We didn't create ONEALPA until the spring of 2000 after Comair was purchased. The Comair and ASA MECs were doing due diligence by trying to engage Giambusso in talks about merging but it was going nowhere. We were being ignored.

Had we not done anything, the results would have been the same. By the time we launched ONEALPA and the PID, we literally had nothing to lose. We tried to do the right thing in accordance with ALPA's admin manual and were rebuffed at every turn. So we brought it to the Executive Council. The DMEC spent a wad of their own money to hire an outside lawfirm to speak against the PID and ALPA shot it down.

But make no mistake, the Delta pilots may exhibit the "understanding" you speak of to your face but at the negotiating table, they slam us. For example, Delta pilots go out of their way to say that the reduction of Comair travel benefits is exclusively the doing of management. But when Comair and ASA got these benefits in the first place, the DMEC filed a grievance so management has always been quite clear about how they really feel.

When Comair started doing the Shuttle service, the Delta pilots picketed. They had ALPA file a lawsuit in court against Delta INC. Comair was wholly owned and the pilots were ALPA too! Now Republic, an independant contractor - not ALPA, is taking over a huge chunk of Shuttle and we hear nothing. So revenue dollars are not just going off the property but outside the union as well. I don't know about you but this strikes me as irrational anti union behavior.

My assertion to you is that everything would be the same today had we done nothing in 2000.
 
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HA25

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Allow me to unburden you from that idea.

We didn't create ONEALPA until the spring of 2000 after Comair was purchased. The Comair and ASA MECs were doing due diligence by trying to engage Giambusso in talks about merging but it was going nowhere. We were being ignored.

Had we not done anything, the results would have been the same. By the time we launched ONEALPA and the PID, we literally had nothing to lose. We tried to do the right thing in accordance with ALPA's admin manual and were rebuffed at every turn. So we brought it to the Executive Council. The DMEC spent a wad of their own money to hire an outside lawfirm to speak against the PID and ALPA shot it down.

But make no mistake, the Delta pilots may exhibit the "understanding" you speak of to your face but at the negotiating table, they slam us. For example, Delta pilots go out of their way to say that the reduction of Comair travel benefits is exclusively the doing of management. But when Comair and ASA got these benefits in the first place, the DMEC filed a grievance so management has always been quite clear about how they really feel.

When Comair started doing the Shuttle service, the Delta pilots picketed. They had ALPA file a lawsuit in court against Delta INC. Comair was wholly owned and the pilots were ALPA too! Now Republic, an independant contractor - not ALPA, is taking over a huge chunk of Shuttle and we hear nothing. So revenue dollars are not just going off the property but outside the union as well. I don't know about you but this strikes me as irrational anti union behavior.

My assertion to you is that everything would be the same today had we done nothing in 2000.

From talking to some DAL people both during and after this period, my assertion is that it wasn't that the DALPA guys weren't ready to talk to us, it's that they weren't ready to digest our (read the senior pilots who dominated the MEC's of both Comair and ASA) unrealistic "Career Expectations" in terms of demands on seniority integration. I can specifically recall a senior ASA Captain telling me when I had mentioned the idea of a staple with DOH for pay rate... "I ain't drop'n no gear for a G'D' Delta pilot! I've been flying DAL passenger for xx years and I deserve more than a staple!"..

That is what killed it.. I was there in the thick of it, and I recall people like FR and JB (both enemies ironically) but both on the same sheet of music when it came to this critical topic.
 

wms

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From talking to some DAL people both during and after this period, my assertion is that it wasn't that the DALPA guys weren't ready to talk to us, it's that they weren't ready to digest our (read the senior pilots who dominated the MEC's of both Comair and ASA) unrealistic "Career Expectations" in terms of demands on seniority integration. I can specifically recall a senior ASA Captain telling me when I had mentioned the idea of a staple with DOH for pay rate... "I ain't drop'n no gear for a G'D' Delta pilot! I've been flying DAL passenger for xx years and I deserve more than a staple!"..

That is what killed it.. I was there in the thick of it, and I recall people like FR and JB (both enemies ironically) but both on the same sheet of music when it came to this critical topic.

Those pilots were a small minority and a staple surely would've been approved. It would've been nice to have a prorated doh for pay only, but I don't think that would've been a deal breaker given that most ASA pilots were relatively new and the future gains would've been worth it.

The problem was the ASA and OH MEC's went over DALPA's head to ALPA national, I think without telling them what they were going to do, and that angered DALPA. It was an awful experience being an ASA commuter on mainline those days. I took a lot of abuse and I had only been at ASA a few months.

After 911 the junior DAL pilots that gave us the hardest time didn't think a staple was such a bad idea. I wonder why?
 
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ACWild

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I've come to realize something about CAL that I didn't full really appreciate before I worked here. Despite all the Fortune 500 Awards and 'Worst to First' lingo, Frankie Lorenzo mentality dominates middle management. This is precisely why the crap you see above happens. I'm tired of it and I think an awful lot of us are at our boiling point. This place needs a serious corporate culture makeover cause like Barrack said you can't put lipstick on a pig...

+1
Man, that Marine story is unbelievable! For those who are offended by the FUPM acronym being tossed around, I'd just like to say that I find actions like the one from the Red Coat way more offensive. Absolutely disgraceful!
 

michael707767

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When Comair started doing the Shuttle service, the Delta pilots picketed. They had ALPA file a lawsuit in court against Delta INC. Comair was wholly owned and the pilots were ALPA too! Now Republic, an independant contractor - not ALPA, is taking over a huge chunk of Shuttle and we hear nothing.


The silence is reflection of the current MEC leadership. Lee Moak will never fight to defend scope.
 

N2264J

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Re: An article that is a must read!!!

That is what killed it...

No. There is so much disinformation about this.

Saying it died because of a few regional line hotheads is what you're supposed to believe but the MECs went out of our way to not talk about how the lists should be merged. It was inappropriate until the merger was sanctioned by ALPA, then there's a negotiation process to make a combined list.

The problem was the ASA and OH MEC's went over DALPA's head to ALPA national, I think without telling them what they were going to do, and that angered DALPA.

We approached Giambusso at least three times that I know of about merging before we filed the PID. Like I said, by the time the paperwork went in, we had absolutely nothing to lose.

Believe what you want but my conscience is clear about the unraveling of this profession and who's responsible for it. The Comair and ASA MECs did everything they could to protect their pilots but were undermined by their own union.
 
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HA25

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No. There is so much disinformation about this.

Saying it died because of a few regional line hotheads is what you're supposed to believe but the MECs went out of our way to not talk about how the lists should be merged. It was inappropriate until the merger was sanctioned by ALPA, then there's a negotiation process to make a combined list.

but by definition, the message that is sent by not (up front) letting them know that they had nothing to lose, and everything to gain (by a staple with DOH for pay) would have made them far more likely to talk. The silence, along with the loudness of those few hotheads lead them to believe we were going to sue them under ALPA M&A bylaws for DOH (or some sort of parity) which was a none starter in their eyes (and rightfully so).

I don't blame those who lead ASA's MEC, I blame the 90% of those "young/junior" guys who came to ASA as a stepping stone for better things and who's whisper to me "I agree with your view on this"; but didn't have the courage to demand their MEC acted in THEIR best interest.
 

N2264J

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but by definition, the message that is sent by not (up front) letting them know that they had nothing to lose, and everything to gain (by a staple with DOH for pay) would have made them far more likely to talk.

Highly unlikely. Believe me, as a practical matter, the very best we could have done was a staple and everybody in the leadership knew it.

Ask the PanAm pilots how they fared with their integration with Delta. Some of those guys lost seniority in dog years. My understanding is that some of them were put behind new hires not hired yet.

I believe they thought they could control us with scope and didn't want to spend negotiating capital buying a merger, thereby dragging their contract down. At the time, the DMEC was expected to deliver United plus 1% to their pilots.

Water under the bridge. That window of opportunity was open briefly as
both Delta and Comair were in Section 6 negotiations. We made a good faith effort to defend the profession by putting some teeth back in the mainline scope clause and lost. ALPA got into bed with management and left us twisting in the lurch.
 
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~~~^~~~

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Originally Posted by FMS-Speed
From talking to some DAL people both during and after this period, my assertion is that it wasn't that the DALPA guys weren't ready to talk to us, it's that they weren't ready to digest our (read the senior pilots who dominated the MEC's of both Comair and ASA) unrealistic "Career Expectations" in terms of demands on seniority integration. I can specifically recall a senior ASA Captain telling me when I had mentioned the idea of a staple with DOH for pay rate... "I ain't drop'n no gear for a G'D' Delta pilot! I've been flying DAL passenger for xx years and I deserve more than a staple!"..

That is what killed it.. I was there in the thick of it, and I recall people like FR and JB (both enemies ironically) but both on the same sheet of music when it came to this critical topic.


but by definition, the message that is sent by not (up front) letting them know that they had nothing to lose, and everything to gain (by a staple with DOH for pay) would have made them far more likely to talk. The silence, along with the loudness of those few hotheads lead them to believe we were going to sue them under ALPA M&A bylaws for DOH (or some sort of parity) which was a none starter in their eyes (and rightfully so).

I don't blame those who lead ASA's MEC, I blame the 90% of those "young/junior" guys who came to ASA as a stepping stone for better things and who's whisper to me "I agree with your view on this"; but didn't have the courage to demand their MEC acted in THEIR best interest.
If this story were true, your point would be that the Delta MEC was manipulated and controlled by a few crew room hot heads at a little regional airline.

Giambusso did not do anything he was not already predisposed to do and his actions were entirely consistent with his statements to both his pilots and the leadership at ASA and Comair. Also, it fit the pattern of bargaining already established at US Air and United.

If your version is true, JB & an out of office former ASA MEC Chair, was able to control the Delta MEC. That makes no sense - and if true, it would have been a childish reaction to let anger and retribution undermine no less than the future of our association, profession and mainline NB flying.

Now those parties you mention were politically unpopular and the DAL MEC latched on to them as public bogeymen, or maybe straw men is a better term. JB's fault? Like he had the power to effect the situation. :rolleyes:

We need to move forward.
 
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HA25

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I'm just going by my own recollection of 1st hand accounts.. Agree, I nor those people were players in the decision game, but their voices were heard loud and clear nevertheless, all over the ALPA message boards, and the positions seemed to be staked out well in advance of any formal meetings between the two (or 3) MEC's. In other words, a staple was a non-starter, and some will say it's because the unrealistic expectations of ASA's MEC, while others will say it was an aloof DALPA MEC.
 
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~~~^~~~

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I agree they did negatively effect the politics at the line pilot level.

Still wish my suggestion to print "I'd be grateful for a staple" tickers had been adopted. It would have taken the straw men out of the picture and preserved a higher degree of unity.
 

HA25

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I agree they did negatively effect the politics at the line pilot level.

Still wish my suggestion to print "I'd be grateful for a staple" tickers had been adopted. It would have taken the straw men out of the picture and preserved a higher degree of unity.

and btw, I agree with you, the elephant in the living room is the majors membership who keep selling out their junior guys on scope.. I spent a short bit at American and AMR has been trying to shift it's CG from American to American Eagle for the past 20 years...

Were it not for scope, I'm sure most major airlines today would be nothing more than travel agencies.
 

Monster Buck

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Yet you allow yourself to be forced into making a choice? Why?

Rather, why not a POTUS that brings economic strength and is a ffreind of labor?

what is econimic strength? A dispairitive gap? Repressed wages?

The socialism spectre is a distracting facade.... We live under a one party system... the Economic Party, with two factions within: Dems and GOP...


Back the USMC/Guam story....

Right out of airline managements playbook.... use a tool to beat down the CA's authority....



This is why I argue hats.... when we shuck the hat we blend into to rest of the low wage workers at the airport....

Super senior B747 or B777 Captains riding the employee bus from the parking lot to the terminal with third world people working for sh tty wages cleaning toilets... This is what management thinks of us...

Keep in mind... management has their own parking lot at the airport....

You and I don't always agree but I couldn't agree with you more.

Oh ya, here is to those guys with the defeatist bucking attitudes. YGTBFKM. Just because we haven't done well in a while doesn't mean give up. Just because you are bitter doesn't mean we don't still try to win the war, if not for ourselves than for the ones to follow. I would rather ride the bus with a group that fought their guts out, even management, than a quitter.
 
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