Ameriflight SIC

[kailuaboy]

I am having a hard time figureing this out.

I am looking at how Ameriflight can have a SIC pilot log SIC time, when that paticular plane only needs one pilot? Or does Ameriflight do some kind on modification to that plane where you need another pilot? This just doesnt make sense.

Ive searched the forums and cant find info on this. I know that SIC time can not be logged unless another pilot is needed.

The SIC time would be in a Navajo. just FYI

 

[SDCFI]

I work for Ameriflight, and I don't think it's legal time personally. To me the time doesn't meet the req's of Part 61 because they are not required crewmembers. You can argue that they're assigned to the flight by the company and therefore required till you're blue in the face, but they will get bumped to accomodate more freight, or even offline jumpseaters. Doesn't sound like a required crew member to me. They could log PIC as sole manipulator when they're flying, as they are qualified to handle the controls, but this wouldn't hold up with most airlines because they're not the legal PIC. I don't have anything against these folks personally, the ones I've met and flown with have been good people. I just don't think it's legitimate time. Good experience, absolutely, but I still question the legality. Maybe someone with inside HR experience can explain how airlines look at this time.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think Airnet has a far more solid stand on the SIC issue.

If an SIC can be bumped for additional freight, what does that say about the necessity for that crewmember?

 

[100LL... Again!]

Personally, I don't have a poblem with someone logging this as sic as long as they have received a REAL checkout in the aircraft.

Herein lies the problem. Suppose a 135 operator uses a king air with no autopilot. Suppose they carry pax using an sic who is checked out, but is confined to radio and gear/flap duty.

Here you have a legitimate sic, logging real sic time, but not really acting as a crewmember in any way that matter.

Now take a freight operation using metro 2's. Sic checked out and qualified in the airplane. Actually flies real appraoches in real weather. REAL EXPERIENCE.

Here's a thought: If the FAA approves an SIC course of training in the operators training manual, they are essentially approving the concept of using sic's. Any pilot used as such should be able to log that time.

Look at it this way: Student solo time can now be called PIC, whereas before it was not. This was the dumbest thing in the world. You are alone in an airplane. On a cross-country flight. If you are not PIC, who the heck is?

Log the time. If you are installed as a crewmember, checkedout using an FAA APPROVED curriculum, and legal to manipulate the controls, why not log it?

 

[Flying Illini]

Personally, I don't have a poblem with someone logging this as sic as long as they have received a REAL checkout in the aircraft.

Here's a thought: If the FAA approves an SIC course of training in the operators training manual, they are essentially approving the concept of using sic's. Any pilot used as such should be able to log that time.

Log the time. If you are installed as a crewmember, checkedout using an FAA APPROVED curriculum, and legal to manipulate the controls, why not log it?

That's how our company operates with the King Air 200's that we have. Approved training curriculum. All flights require two pilots, both must be appropriately trained (captains go to Flight Safety, FO's go through the SIC approved ground/flight training curriculum).

 

[kailuaboy]

ok... ive established this conclusion from your posts:

I could log SIC in the Navajo as long as the FAA has approved the curriculum (spell?).

Is this right? It sounds right to me.

Ivan

 

[SDCFI]

Ops Specs

If a company has it in their ops spes that an SIC is required for a 135 flight then by all means log it as such. As we all know under 121 or 135 ops specs carry the same weight as the FAR's themselves, so an SIC requirement in the ops specs makes it required under the regulations under which the flight is being conducted, therefore loggable. Here at Amflight there is nothing in our ops specs regarding SIC's in our single-pilot aircraft. A technicality maybe, but that doesn't make it right. My point of view is how would they look at this in an airline interview? If you can't back up your time with concrete evidence that it's legal time you're opening up a bad can of worms. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Timebuilder]

That sounds correct.

I'll bet airline people are familiar with the SIC concept at Airnet, and understand the aspect of ops specs requiring the SIC position.

 

[TimsKeeper]

I would bet NOT!!

Time can not be wished, or hoped for, or blessed upon, or any other trumped up explanation. Flight time is well defined in the FAR's and unfortunately if you are reaching that far it is not logable.

An airline may recognize the fact that you were in the aircraft however if you can tell me one airline that will count that time towards any requirements I'll send you a shiny nickel. On second thought I'll just concede you were right...I'm a pilot and need every nickel possible to feed my family.

Wow this is a mean post, I need another keg can! LOL

 

[100LL... Again!]

I know of more than one person who was hired at a first-string jet regional with most time being obtained as an sic in 135 piston twins. (Airnet, if I remember)

 

[flewa72]

My understanding was that a SIC was required in the Metro if the autopilot is deferred and so, theoretically, they defer the autopilot so that the "first officer" can legally log the time. But I would defy you to find a logbook entry showing that deferral for 5% of the flights that have been logged by these guys.

 

[scubabri]

Ameriflight has in their ops spec that if they don't have a qualified SIC in the right seat, they aren't required, if they do have one, they are required, thus the SIC can log the time. Kinda funky, but Ameriflight seems to have some power with the FSDO.

sb

 

[T-Gates]

I met a guy that was a SIC on the Metro at AMF. He said he got bumped for freight quite a bit.... Can't really argue that he was "required". Especially if the plane has a 3-axis autopilot and the Captain has a Single Pilot Type.

 

[Timebuilder]

Ameriflight has in their ops spec that if they don't have a qualified SIC in the right seat, they aren't required, if they do have one, they are required, thus the SIC can log the time. Kinda funky, but Ameriflight seems to have some power with the FSDO.

sb

I think I'd be afraid of the chuckling at the interview....

 

[kailuaboy]

decided

thanks everyone...

ive decided to just get my CFI ratings and not go through Ameriflight and purchase the SIC time. ) I know you all are against that!! )

Ivan

 

[Timebuilder]

Good move.

You won't regret what you will learn about flying as a CFI. This will be some of the most satisfying aviation experience you will have.

 

[jergar999]

It's hard to believe you made the right choice without 500 flaming responses.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I am still amazed at how many of you emply a leap of logic to tell these guys that the time is not loggable.

Why would the FAA approve a course of training for an operator for a seat position that the person cannot legally fill?

Cause if you can legally fill it, you can legally log it.

Use your heads.

Part 91 SIC time in a king air? Now we begin to get into questionable territory.

Point is, they are in the airplane, they are qualified for the seat, they are flying the airplane, they should log it.

If an interviewer CHOOSES to disregard such time as not valuable, that is their choice.

Look at Southwest - they would rather count someone's 1000hrs of caravan PIC as turbine PIC, but would not want a 9000 USAIR furloughee with 900 turbine PIC. What does 1000 hrs in a van have to do with flying 121 in a jet.

Pointis, every company has its weird ideas of what makes a person qualified, but in the end, if a person is not THOROUGHLY interviewed and given an extensive sim eval, you really never know.

 

[kailuaboy]

navajo

actually it would have been SIC in a Navajo....

Im choosing not to go this route cause I believe it to be discraceful and a non-respectable position. I just wanted the easy way out an thats not what should be done. Im going to study and be a CFI to establish my flight hours.

Ivan

 

[100LL... Again!]

Good call, and I respect you a lot for this decision.

Just because I argue for the loggability (new word?) of such sic thime, does not mean that I think it is always valuable.

CFI work will be very rewarding.