Am I a dummy?

[Mesabi Miner]

Here's a CFI question for you all...

Picture this. You're on right base in a C-172 with a simulated engine out. You're way high, and you've got excess airspeed. You turn final, still way high and with plenty of speed and while in the turn, apply left rudder to enter a slip. You carry the slip around the completion of the turn and take it out prior to touchdown. Am I wrong to say that this is an acceptible maneuver PROVIDED your airspeed doesn't fall off (i.e. approaching a stall/spin accident)? I was recently checked out by a CFI that emphatically told me to take out the slip because "you never slip it in a turn." Am I right or have I been dangerous all these years?

MM

 

[CUEBOAT]

did he explain why you should never slip it in a turn? I cant find a reason why you shouldn't do this? According to the FAA a forward slip and a sideslip both have you tracking over the ground(not turning). As long as you dont approach a stall I see no reason for this to be unsafe, maybe not the best way to do it but unsafe??

 

[Flechas]

I say you are fine, as long as you don't let the plane stall.

 

[Ralgha]

Hell I've done that for fun (not with students).

 

[labbats]

I was taught that as long as airspeed holds (nose below the horizon for my private) that you're ok. I used to teach students to put their foot to the floor with the rudder, then track back and forth along a road using aileron, and closely monitoring airspeed. I don't see a problem with what you did.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

Thanks. I was a little shocked at how emphatically he told me to re-center the ball. I can still remember my instructor showing me that technique in a Tomahawk during my private training. He was very clear on keeping the nose below the horizon and maintaining airspeed. Tomahawk would come down like a brick with a slip. Come to think of it, it did regardless!

MM

 

[DrewBlows]

What you discribed is just one tool in your bag of tricks, so use it if you must. That said, as a check instructor I didn't like to see student's doing this as it shows poor planning. It's not something I would fail a student for, but we would definately talk about it and I would usually suggest that they spend a little more time practiceing engine out procedures with their instructor.

 

[shamrock]

Yes, the planning might not be the best but I wouldn't fault someone for being high on an engine out procedure, within reason of course. I'd much rather plan on being a bit high and scrubbing off the altitude than to try to make a perfect pattern and end up trying to stretch a glide.

As for the original question, I don't see anything wrong with the procedure as long as you are aware of what you are doing and keep your airspeed under control. When I was a CFI we would have short approach spot landing contests with the power going to idle abeam the numbers. In the Warrior, that was pretty much a slip all the way from downwind to short final.

 

[bobbysamd]

Forward slips

You're on right base in a C-172 with a simulated engine out. You're way high, and you've got excess airspeed. You turn final, still way high and with plenty of speed and while in the turn, apply left rudder to enter a slip. You carry the slip around the completion of the turn and take it out prior to touchdown . . . . . Am I right or have I been dangerous all these years?

No, you have not been dangerous all of these years. Moreover, forward slips are a completely appropriate and great way to dissipate excess altitude, especially with a simulated engine out. Depending on the situation, in a 172 I might not even bother with flaps and just slip all the way to touchdown.

Just the same, it still might be better just to make a normal turn to final and then slip. But it depends on the situation.

Hope that helps a little more. Forward slips are virtually a lost art because of flaps, but are still an important part of your repertoire.

 

[A Squared]

Did the instructor explain why he didn't think you should slip in a turn?

I'm guessing that his reasoning is if you stall it in a slip in a turn you might spin.

yeah, if you stall in a slip in straight flight you might spin, does this mean that you shouldn't slip at all?

I would guess that his answer to that would be, yes but in a turn the airplane stalls at a higher airspeed.

Ummm.... yes it does, but it does that whether you're in a slip or not. According to that logic you should never turn either, because you might stall.

Short answer, no there is no reason not to slip in a turn. watch you airspeed, just like you do in a coordinated turn to final and in a non-turning slip.

 

[bender]

I would have guessed his reasoning to include a cross-controlled stall.

 

[bobbysamd]

Cross-control stall

I would have guessed his reasoning to include a cross-controlled stall.

I had that thought, but deleted it from my post above, thinking that a cross-control stall in this situation would more likely result from too much right rudder and then trying to overcome the skid with opposite aileron, followed by increasing pitch, etc.

What should be done is take the student up at altitude and simulate the scenario so he/she can see what happens for himself/herself. Moreover, cross-control stalls should be demonstrated, tried and recovered from.

 

[LJDRVR]

The CFI hasn't worked much on his craft. If he had, he'd know that a turning slip has been used for decades as a technique to lose altitude during the turn from base to final. I've done it hundreds of times in a variety of GA airplanes and I'm still here.

This CFI has confused inside rudder, (A bad thing) with a perfectly acceptable maneuver that if memory serves me correctly, is in the Flight Training Handbook.
Ask this guy how a turning slip increases the likelihood of a stall spin accident. He won't be able to, he's just parroting something he thinks he heard somebody tell him once.

PS If you want a good laugh, have your friend make his explanation in front of a Pitts, Stearman or Waco owner.

 

[LJDRVR]

I didn't like to see student's doing this as it shows poor planning.

Are you one of those folks who thinks the spoilers should never be used in the descent as that constitutes poor planning? Are you saying you'd rather your student plan his engine outs so precisely that they have no margin for error? I'd much rather have some extra energy and altitude while trying to reach the field.

Not trying to bust your chops, but I think you're wrong.

 

[Standby 1]

Are you one of those folks who thinks the spoilers should never be used in the descent as that constitutes poor planning?

Oh Lordy, I hate that....can't tell you how many people I've flown with who say exactly that. (Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread!)

 

[Goose Egg]

The CFI hasn't worked much on his craft. If he had, he'd know that a turning slip has been used for decades as a technique to lose altitude during the turn from base to final... PS If you want a good laugh, have your friend make his explanation in front of a Pitts, Stearman or Waco owner.

Dang, LJD beat me to it. Agree 100%.

Are you one of those folks who thinks the spoilers should never be used in the descent as that constitutes poor planning? Are you saying you'd rather your student plan his engine outs so precisely that they have no margin for error?

Everyone freaks out about not having the ability to go around in a glider, but it's really not that big of a deal. Without divebrakes, a glider can, uh, well, glide a lot better than a typical training airplane. But with divebrakes, the glider can descend a lot more quickly without gaining airspeed. Net result? You can get a glider into anything, easily. (Although ironically, a slip in a lot of gliders really isn't that effective.)

Use everything you've got.

-Goose

 

[DrewBlows]

Are you one of those folks who thinks the spoilers should never be used in the descent as that constitutes poor planning?

Quite the contrary, in a piston airplane with spoilers (speed brakes) I encouraged their use in the descent in order to keep the engine warm. I don't have them in airplane that I fly now (sometimes wish I did), but I don't have a problem using equipment that is installed in an airplane for what it was designed for.

Are you saying you'd rather your student plan his engine outs so precisely that they have no margin for error? I'd much rather have some extra energy and altitude while trying to reach the field.

Don't look too much into my previous post. I have seen a lot of really poor technique in the training enviroment (it's expected, it's training). I was commenting on that fact only, not making a broad generization on how I think an airplane should be flown. If I saw a student who had poor technique and had to rely on a forward slip in order to make a landing site, I would mention it to the stuent and their instructor. On the other hand, it's good to see a student do a forward slip, it shows they are thinking, but while it's appropriate in some situations, it's not appropriate in all situations.

Not trying to bust your chops, but I think you're wrong.

Relax, the very first thing I said in my previous post was that the forward slip is in your repitouir so use it.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Hey Drew what/where do you fly now?

 

[Mesabi Miner]

Thanks, guys and gals for all the input. I also called a few CFI buddies of mine and they confirmed what all of you have said. I'm certain this CFI was concerned about the cross controlled stall situation, something every CFI should show their students at altitude.

Thanks again,

MM

 

[avbug]

Chances are that this instructor was never taught properly. He or she is probably also afraid of cross controlled stalls. I'll bet that if you query further, you'll learn that he was never taught them, and doesn't teach them. It's a mystery area for him.

A bigger concern with slipping is the excessive load on the vertical stabilizer and in some cases, unporting fuel or pluggin fuel vents.

Like many others here, I learned to fly in a J-3 cub, which had no flaps, and slipping was a way of life. Over the years, however, I've seen a lot of cracks in vertical stabilizer attach points and brackets...all attributable to slipping in the aircraft. I've seen this in aircrafr ranging from small single engine airplanes to lare four engine airplanes (we used to use a lot of slipping in the heavy tankers to get them into the spaces where we made our drops.

For the most part now, I avoid slips because I've seen too much structural damage caused by them. If most pilots had seen the same thing, they'd avoid them too. I'm not talking about slips at Vne, but routine slips below maneuvering speeds. If most pilots had any idea how little is really holding that tail end together, they'd be a lot more careful what they do with the airplane.