Am. Airlines Scope forces Eagle Furlough

[~~~^~~~]

American Eagle to cut back 500
Pilot job losses at larger sister company trigger furloughs

02/02/2002

By TERRY MAXON / The Dallas Morning News


Commuter carrier American Eagle Airlines Inc. in early April will furlough 500 employees, who are losing their jobs because some American Airlines Inc. pilots have lost theirs, officials said Friday.

The cutbacks come as many U.S. airlines are using their lower-cost commuter affiliates to help them recover traffic lost after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

American Eagle is barred from adding capacity if sister company American has pilots on furlough. With 595 American pilots off the job, Eagle is limited to the capacity it had when the furloughs began.

As part of the cutbacks, American Eagle will close its stations in Beaumont-Port Arthur and Lafayette, La., and halt its daily service from Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport.

In addition, American Eagle is leaving five other routes in its system on April 7 and reducing flights on other routes. And it will remove a row of seats from turboprop airplanes to cut capacity.

The capacity limit is part of American's contract with its pilots' union, the Allied Pilots Association, which has vigorously fought efforts to expand flying by non-American Airlines pilots. In the contract, a "scope clause" limits all flying done on behalf of American to American pilots.

American asked the union to waive the rule.

In response, union negotiators proposed that American's pilots fly the regional jets. American rejected that proposal as too costly.

American Eagle pilot James Magee, spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents Eagle pilots, said his pilots are caught in the middle.

"Anything that's going to take jobs away from American Eagle pilots, we're going to oppose," he said. "The job losses they propose are artificial and they're not necessary."

These ASM limits and Block Hour limits are simply mutual assured destruction.

 

[jetexas]

Looks like even the press is now trying to blame Eagle's woes on APA. APA's rejection of the ASM cap was justified, contractually. Eagle's outsourcing is not. I suppose it's time for ALPA or APA to go public about the real reason for these base closures and furloughs.

 

[Tim47SIP]

I hope the Eagle guys are not holding their breath waiting for ALPA to do anything. How is stifelling dominance and profitability helping APA or AMR in the long run. So when does the showdown stop, after AA or Eagles demise? How long will APA call AA's bluf?
Who are the real winners here? Me thinks, no one. Looks like another United brewing.

 

[Draginass]

AE guys ought to worry more about watching AMR outsourcing their jobs to outside companies and pilots not on their seniority list. I think the ASM caps may take care of itself this spring as business picks up. Could it be that AMR is trying to stampeed AE pilots? Steady gentlemen.

 

[bigD]

I'm going to ask a really dumb question, so bear with me here - but what are the real underlying issues with all of this? Knowing jack squat about the industry, the extent of my understanding basically mirrors what was written in that news article. Apparently there's a lot more to it, which of course makes sense considering how the media is...

So what am I missing? Specifically I'm sitting here wondering how AA pilots, management, the APA, and whomever else can justify taking the RJ jobs from American Eagle. It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Magic]

I am a furloughed AA pilot. The best way I can describe AMR/AA/TWA/AE is to equate them to a family. An extremely DYSFUNCTIONAL family. I honestly don't know the entire history (I was only there a few weeks) but the result is that today the relationship between all the players is totally antagonistic. From our first get together with the APA, the disdain each party has for the others became obvious. Hidden agendas (real or imagined) are found in everything one side or the other does. I wish good luck to all AA pilots especially those furloughed like me. I feel for the TWA guys that will lose their jobs when integration is complete (You're all ahead of me anyway!). I feel for the AE pilots that will lose their jobs because neither side trusts the other any farther than they could throw them. I am extremely fortunate to be in the hired pool at SWA and look forward to the day (Next month hopefully) when I will no longer be a part of this fiasco. I've learned a lot about what is important since 9/11. Job security is more important than a large "B" fund. Being part of a group that is not constantly at odds with management will make life much nicer.

 

[Draginass]

Magic, congrats on getting on with SWA during these difficult times. Things are bad all over the industry at present, not just AMR. AMR argueably has a lot less problems than most others. All of the companies have intentionally created a mish-mash hodge-pod of commuter carriers in order to insulate themselves from labor discontent.

Don't worry, SWAPA's time is coming too. There's been discontent brewing at SW too.

 

[monkeyboy]

As an AE Pilot I would like to express my support for APA and it's proposal for one seniority list.

The time has come to change the our perspective on Regional carriers. American Eagle is nothing more than a B scale carrier run by the same company. As are other regionals for other carriers.

It's certainly not APA's fault that more pilots at AE are being furloughed. It is management who will not even discuss the idea of integration. They obviously do not like the idea of a united pilot group.

 

[jetexas]

And in this corner.....

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Gregg Overman
Director of Communications
Allied Pilots Association
817-302-2250

First Officer James Magee
American Eagle ALPA MEC
972-896-5317

ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION, AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION RESPOND TO ANNOUNCEMENT
OF LAYOFFS AT AMERICAN EAGLE: 'THE PRIMARY ISSUE IS OUTSOURCING'

Fort Worth, Texas (February 4, 2002)-The Allied Pilots Association (APA), which
serves as collective bargaining agent for the 11,000 pilots of American
Airlines, and the American Eagle Air Line Pilots Association Master Executive
Council representing the 2,800 American Eagle pilots jointly expressed their
concerns over the February 1 announcement of furloughs at American Eagle by AMR
management (NYSE: AMR).
"It is unfortunate that management has decided to furlough American Eagle
employees, rather than negotiate a solution that works to the mutual
satisfaction of all parties," said Captain John Darrah, APA President.
"Clearly, the current relationship between American Airlines and American Eagle
remains unsatisfactory, both from management's perspective and from the
standpoint of the labor groups at the two carriers. APA is committed to
resolving this issue during the course of our current Section 6 negotiations."
According to the American Eagle ALPA representatives, the primary issue for
both pilot groups is outsourcing.
"We understand why APA negotiated the commuter air carrier limitations in their
contract's Scope clause," said Captain Jim Higgins, American Eagle ALPA MEC
Chairman. "American Airlines' pilots are concerned about the outsourcing of
their flying. We are now seeing the same problem between American Eagle and
the American Connection carriers."
APA's collective bargaining agreement calls for American Airlines' commuter
operation to freeze its Available Seat Miles and block hours at October 1, 2001
levels as a consequence of the American Airlines pilot furloughs. American
Connection carriers Trans States, Chautauqua and Corporate Express are now
performing flying to feed American Airlines in St. Louis and Nashville that
American Eagle should be flying. Higgins noted that if American Eagle's flying
had not been outsourced to these other carriers, there would no need to
furlough Eagle employees.
"What management is doing with American Airlines, American Eagle and American
Connection is classic whipsawing-that is, attempting to pit labor groups
against one another-and it is not going to work," said Higgins. "We would be
much better served to concentrate on achieving a solution that is in all of our
long-term best interests."

Headquartered in Fort Worth, Texas, APA was founded in 1963. The union's Web
site address is www.alliedpilots.org.
American Eagle ALPA Master Executive Council is headquartered in Euless, Texas.
Formed in 1931, ALPA is the world's oldest and largest pilots union, and is
affiliated with the AFL-CIO. ALPA represents 66,000 pilots at 47 airlines in
Canada and the United States. Its Web site is at www.alpa.org.

 

[bigD]

I don't understand why AMR management wouldn't want one pilot group. What is the downside of this solution? Seems like it would make everyone happy. Do they feel that one common pilot group would weild too much power?

 

[~~~^~~~]

If the pilots would come together and make onelist a issue worth striking over AMR would have to negotiate.

 

[English]

Contrary to all the rhethoric, Eagle pilots have the power to do absolutely nothing due to the sixteen year contract (except fly by the book ......

 

[surfnole]

As an interested observer, it seems that the mainline pilots hold all the power. If they would fight for equality of pay rather than scope clauses, they would be better off in the long run.

These scope clauses are taking away profits which airlines need now.

Equal pay would have the same effect as a scope clause. RJs would become uneconomical (or less attractive) on some routes, thus RJ flying would be restricted. However, one pilot group would not be pitted against another.

 

[80drvr]

As an interested observer, it seems that the mainline pilots hold all the power. If they would fight for equality of pay rather than scope clauses, they would be better off in the long run.

These scope clauses are taking away profits which airlines need now.

Equal pay would have the same effect as a scope clause. RJs would become uneconomical (or less attractive) on some routes, thus RJ flying would be restricted. However, one pilot group would not be pitted against another.

ALPA inked a 16 year no strike deal at Eagle. I'd love to see our Eagle bretheren make a respectable wage, but there's nothing APA can do for them with that contract.

 

[SF3CAP]

Magic:
You talk about all our pilot groups not getting along. Now's when we really NEED to stick together. AMR would like nothing better than to see all us Eagle guys mad at you APA guys and blaming the further Eagle furloughs on you.
I think it's great that we're working on these issues together now. STICK IT UP YOUR ARSE, AMR!

AHHH, that feels better.

I'd give my left nut to be able to go over to SWA with you right now. Good luck.

 

[walkthasky]

???

I thought they just recalled 30 or so pilots...is that out of the question now ??

 

[SF3CAP]

I heard those recalls were cancelled.

 

[publisher]

Let's review

Let's review and see if we have this right.

American furloughs x number of pilots, some of whom can go to Eagle on a flow back, some cannot because of times.

American says we want to expand Eagle flying and slow the bleeding.

APA says sure if you do what we know you will not.

Ameircan says then we will cut back some more and put even more people on street.

Continental says we will not furlough these guys as that will just screw up the only area we have doing anything positive(COEX). Some pilots saved, benefits offset.

At Delta, they are off on a different tangent. Dissapating traffic so no more Comair strike. Force Majure you know.

At United, they appear to be trying to stop the giant chest wound. Not too worried about their feeders. One might buy them.

And the winner is as usual, no one at all.

 

[TWA Dude]

AMR is very good at what they do. They couldn't care less who flies the planes; they just want profit. It's a master stroke for AMR to sign a contract and then enlist public opinion to try to get the other party to change it. Right now big planes aren't getting filled so they want more small jets. Two years ago they couldn't order big planes fast enough. It's a cyclical industry but union contracts lack the flexibility management needs to change with the times. To be brutally honest I think it would be better for everyone under the AMR umbrella right now to let Eagle grow a little bit -- but once you've given in a little they'll take a lot and keep on taking. Unfortunately it's just not practical. It a bloody shame management and unions can't work better together. And I'm far from wise enough to propose any solutions.

 

[publisher]

correct

While you are definitely correct, the fact is that profit is exactly, the last time I looked, the only reason for a profit making company to exist. It is not to employ pilots, fly neat aircraft, have fantastic computer systems, cool dispatch centers, etc.

When labor contracts restrict the ability to adjust to the market that exists for the company to participate in, you are on a very bad course.

There are two things that need to be remembered first.

The customer ultimately must be willing to pay for what you offer.

Profit is the one and only reason that the company is there.

The current situation is a perfect example of why in a shrinking situation, people and companies tend to feed on themselves. This is one of those times when the strong like SWA get stronger.

As I said above, there are no winners here.

 

[80drvr]

Re: correct

When labor contracts restrict the ability to adjust to the market that exists for the company to participate in, you are on a very bad course.

APA's contract doesn't restrict the ability to adjust....it restricts the ability to outsource. AA could by J-3 cubs for all I care as long as the flying isn't outsourced. APA has made a viable effort to "adjust" to the current market and preserve jobs both at AA and AE. But apparently AMR doesn't want to "adjust", they want to pursue a path that's in no one's best interest. It's kind of sad that our industry is run this way.

 

[SF3CAP]

"To be brutally honest I think it would be better for everyone under the AMR umbrella right now to let Eagle grow a little bit -- but once you've given in a little they'll take a lot and keep on taking."

Hey TWA: When you say "they'll take alot and keep on taking", you mean AMR management, right? Don't make us Eagle guys feel like the enemy, here. Remember - we're all in this thing together. Welcome to the AMR "happy family!"

 

[TWA Dude]

[/b]Hey TWA: When you say "they'll take alot and keep on taking", you mean AMR management, right? Don't make us Eagle guys feel like the enemy, here. Remember - we're all in this thing together. Welcome to the AMR "happy family!" [/B]

Yes, you interpreted me correctly. I am very empathetic to the plight of the Eagle guys. You're all too familiar with AMR's whipsawing.

 

[publisher]

adjust

80drvr

If you restrict my ability to outsource, that is a pretty big restricition....

Let's say I can get a provider to fly an RJ or Turbo prop in a market for 1/2 what it would cost me to do it myself plus I have no commitment past 90 days..

Second, when Eagle buys those cubs let's see how many mainliners want to come down and fly them.

As was just shown by Continental, the cost just to bring the flow down was prohibitive to COEX.

 

[80drvr]

Re: adjust

80drvr

If you restrict my ability to outsource, that is a pretty big restricition....

Let's say I can get a provider to fly an RJ or Turbo prop in a market for 1/2 what it would cost me to do it myself plus I have no commitment past 90 days..

Second, when Eagle buys those cubs let's see how many mainliners want to come down and fly them.

As was just shown by Continental, the cost just to bring the flow down was prohibitive to COEX.

If it's that unreasonable to restrict outsourcing, then management shouldn't have agreed to it contractually.

The mainliners DO want to fly the RJ's. They wanted them in 97, they wanted them in 00, and they want them now. Have you seen APA's proposal regarding such?

The cost to the flowback is significant but it's no different really than the cost to furlough. In the case of the flowback the training accordion just gets longer by another airframe before someone is displaced to the street.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Publisher, there is a winner, you named it, SWA. I'm with you on these state of affairs.

80dvr - A cap is a cap, period. If it restricts in total numbers, that is it. Just because AMR is outsourcing and not utilizeing eagle does not hinder the fact that the cap is restricting growth when AMR needs the capital. If it looks like an onion, smells like an onion, then it is probably an onion. Look at Delta, DALPA and DCI right now. Delta management is ignoring the caps and growing DCI like crazy and is staying partially afloat because of it.

US Air's scope has put that company into a tail spin. The WO's contractually are not allowed to have RJ's, so the company has used outsourced equipement. Now the mainline pilots are saying it is OK to get more RJ's while they watched their company go down the drain, but the company has to still outsource because they dont have the capital to finance themselves. And now the mainline pilot group (because of their own contract with US Air) cant fly them on their own property so they are going to fly them at Mesa, TSA, Chat, etc. Now tell me that is not a screwed up situation.
I understand why mainline scopes are put in place, and why the mainline groups are afraid to give concesions (because they might no get them back), but at some point, there has to be some flexibility to let the company build and make a profit. Last time I looked, these airlines were not a non profit organization to pay the employees.
I know there will be some cannon balls lobbed this way for this one!

 

[80drvr]

Publisher, there is a winner, you named it, SWA. I'm with you on these state of affairs.

80dvr - A cap is a cap, period. If it restricts in total numbers, that is it. Just because AMR is outsourcing and not utilizeing eagle does not hinder the fact that the cap is restricting growth when AMR needs the capital. If it looks like an onion, smells like an onion, then it is probably an onion. Look at Delta, DALPA and DCI right now. Delta management is ignoring the caps and growing DCI like crazy and is staying partially afloat because of it.

US Air's scope has put that company into a tail spin. The WO's contractually are not allowed to have RJ's, so the company has used outsourced equipement. Now the mainline pilots are saying it is OK to get more RJ's while they watched their company go down the drain, but the company has to still outsource because they dont have the capital to finance themselves. And now the mainline pilot group (because of their own contract with US Air) cant fly them on their own property so they are going to fly them at Mesa, TSA, Chat, etc. Now tell me that is not a screwed up situation.
I understand why mainline scopes are put in place, and why the mainline groups are afraid to give concesions (because they might no get them back), but at some point, there has to be some flexibility to let the company build and make a profit. Last time I looked, these airlines were not a non profit organization to pay the employees.
I know there will be some cannon balls lobbed this way for this one!

Well lob away. Not really sure what I said or implied that would require me to don nomex.

What you seem to be implying is that the only way for air carriers to recover is by transfering mainline flying to commuter affiliates. My contention is straightforward. AMR agreed to certain limits. APA recognizes that the company would like more flexibility in terms of capacity and has developed a proposal that would meet the company's needs at a competitive cost.

Obviously, it isn't that important to the AMR's recovery, because they're not very concerned with negotiating a solution. AMR has no problem shooting first and asking questions later if something in the contract is an obastacle to their plans. Post 9/11, they invoked force majeure to blow holes through our contract, and I'd bet AE's as well. Why stop now.

 

[Draginass]

US Airway's problems go WAY deeper than RJs. That's a side show. U's been so badly led and managed that any scope relief is probably a temp reprieve. RJ's in themselves are not the long term future of aviation. Maybe regional guys like working for $30 an hour, but I doubt it. If management had it's way, "regionals" would be flying 777s with 500 hour TT/$25 per hour F/Os and $60/ hour Captains.

 

[Tim47SIP]

80drvr
No you didn't say anything bad, my lob comment was general in nature because this is a touchy subject. Keep up the good posts!

I am not saying that mainline flying should be transferred to the rejionals. What I am saying is that some of these contracts out there need to be designed is such a way that the company can manipulate assets when needed. I know mainline guys think that the regionals will suck up all of their flying due to lower costs, but I think that is a little unrealistic. Management will use mainline aircraft on routes that require mainline aircraft. It is assenine to say that because a market will not support the amount of mainline aircraft we have at a large carrier, that management is stuck flying those assets half full because of a contract. Bleeding a company continuously to preserve the current state of jobs isn't good for anyone. There has to be a company in order to pay the employees. As was posted earlier, there is no real winner when it comes to restrictions. Management cant make the gains it needs by rightsizing, mainline guys are getting furloughed and are trying to take the regionals jets which they didn't want earlier, and the WO's get screwed by flushdowns or additional furloughs due to caps. Some or all of this is happening in every major carrier with caps. So what do we do now, stick to the status quo, put our hands over our eyes, scream LA, LA, LA, LA so that we cant hear the industry changing around us as in ALPA's case, or do we try to restucture (like APA tried) to make the companies money, and preserve the industry. Will some of those great mainline jobs deminish because the industry and economy cant support them, probably, but they will return when things turn around.

Drag
I am sorry if I implied that the mainline contract caused US Air's demise. That is not the case as you stated. You are 100% correct in that they have been in deep trouble for years. But the point I was trying to make is that mainlines contract that will not allow the WO's to fly RJ's at all has greatly hindered US Air's abillity to rebound and compete in the RJ industry. Mangement has to rely on outsourcing in order to gain feed. It has also caused their own furloughed pilots to have to go off property to fly them. I cant for the life of me think of a good reason that the US Air pilots had for totally restricting the use of RJ's at their WO's. US Air management has been trying to get more RJ's for some time and the mainline guys would not budge. Now all of the sudden they have a great number of guys on furlough so it is OK to get more RJ's if they get to fly them. So what was the original reason for not having the additional ones prior to the furloughs? You got me on that one.

 

[bigD]

Heh - this has been a really good thread for getting me up to speed. I think I'm slowly beginning to see the whole picture here.

But one small thing, what's a WO?