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Alpine F/o Program

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Jan 17, 2002
Ok all I need your input. First has anyone done this program, and what do you think of it? Second, and this is the tough one, is this type of program frowned upon being a type of pay for training program? Is this a path any of you would consider doing, if you already havn't done it? www.alpineairaviation.com
As much as PFT has been discussed over the years, I am sure that many here would be glad to offer numerous quantitative methods (litmus test) for determining if this is a PFT scenario.

I think in simplest terms, ask yourself, does this opportunity displace a professional pilot who would otherwise be compensated for performing the duties and responsibilities that you are considering paying the company for?

excertped from Alpine's website:

Not sure about the Beeech 99, but the 1900 being over 12,500 requires a type to act as PIC:

:eek: Tuition Cost
Beech 99 aircraft: $13,095.00 (250 hour program) Beech 1900 aircraft: $18,995.00 (300 hour program)

I think, and I hope that many will agree that there are much better uses for $13-19,000 of your hard earned dollars. Sure, interest rates are down and there are numerous ways to finance this kind of debt, but typically it is not like a car loan. Unless you have a rich uncle wiling to foot the bill or you are very disciplined in your finanaces, you will be paying for this for the better part of 15 to 20 years!

Bottom line, with things the way they are right now, I doubt you are going to miss out on anything by spending the next year building experience by some other, more traditional means.
Run a search on "PFT" young Jedi and all will be revealed. You'll get both sides of the debate ... mostly intelligent ... some venom, though. My take is (I've changed my mind after reading the debates) ... whatever blows your skirt up concerning Alpine's program. Because their aircraft are probably operated single-pilot (yes ... 1900s and 99s can be SP cert'd) and you're not taking a real job from anyone. My only reservation would be the legality of the time logged.

Also search on "Alpine" specifically. There's probably something here already.


(Suprised the flame isn't already incoming ....)
My opinion....

After all the PFT debates, I think there is no harm done to the profession unless they are taking away what should rightfully be a paid job and are making you pay to sit in the seat....a la Gulfstream.

Alpine normally flys single pilot, cargo...so it's program is the same as Ameriflight's.

Many people consider this type of program to be a waste of time and money....others see it as a fast way to log valuable turbine time to get noticed at the regionals. Be aware that anything even looking close to PFT is going to be a sensitive issue....a grey area....in the industry and some aren't gonna like it....could cost you a job someday if the interviewer is anti-PFT, or it could get you a job cause you had the turbine time.....

How much will you learn? I'd say a lot depends on your PIC...does he get paid extra to "train" you? Do you have a good attitude about being there or do you just want to put time in the book? I could see it being a total waste of time or a great experience depending on your PIC.
paper shredder

When it comes time for me to review resumes, Alpine Air is yet another PFT operation, so anyone listing that on a resume going to me will end up going straight into my paper shredder.


If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, there is no doubt that it's you-know-what. I do appreciate de727ups' very well-taken comments, though, on how this might be distinguishable from Gulfstream and might not really be eliminating a normally paid position. Just the same, to get it you have to write the check and the people and interviewers you may encounter down the road may be less than thrilled with your endeavors.

Remember, too, the ripoff and fraud potential of P-F-T. In addition, H.R. coneheads can figure out P-F-T and even if the time logged was legal they may be apt to disrespect it.

There was an article on type ratings in the recent AOPA Pilot. The author touched very briefly on P-F-T and opined that it does not carry the stigma it once did. I very seriously doubt that. I still believe it carries a major stigma with pilots who worked hard to get where they are and who resent interlopers who wrote the check to get to the same place. I also believe that people resent P-F-T for how the undeserving get to butt in line ahead of the deserving.

Just think about it carefully in terms of the big picture. Would you be better off saving the $19K for a rainy day or is it truly worth it to make your Faustian bargain? Is the time legal to log? We've had plenty of debates about that, too.

Don't make a bad decision.
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Alpine Program

Thanks to all that have responded and may yet respond.
I would like to put a little more into this discussion and see
what you all think. First off, let me say that If I thought this was
another Gulfstream Air I would not even waste the time to ask.
However after doing some research into Alpines program I found
that part of the program involves going to Flight Safety and comeing out with a 135 SIC checkride. I also am intrigued by the
fact that there add gaurantees the hours depending on program that you opt for. I have had dealings with a company in the past wich listed flight times that the program covered only to find out those times were not gauranteed.

Now for something a little more philosophical.

1)What are we willing to do to make our dream happen?
a)I myself, after spending what I consider way to much
time, standing over an a/c lav that reaks to high heaven
hoping I can defer a problem or that it will be an easy fix;
am open to just about anything to get my flying off the

2)Should we all get are time being instructors?
a) Lets face it, although we can fly not all of us should
be trying to teach others how to.

3)Would you feel better sitting next to a person that shelled out
some cash for flight time (and had training during that time),
or find that the person next to you had enough skill to pass
the interview but actual flight time came about through use of
a pen?

One last point. I have started noticing an increase in this type of company. For example: Tab Express, Pacific wings , and to some extent ATPS. The later of which is the only company not yet flying either pax or cargo. Maybe the old ways are changing.

This may be abit off the subject, but I have seen it stated that doing any kind of pay for training only hurts the other Pilots out
there lookin for a job. I recently came across a job posting for an outfit that needed pilots with 135 mins or better and was only going to pay a Thousand a month. Now unless the owner is familiy, are we doing any good to anyone by accepting a job that pays equal to or less than fast food? Flying for hire is not an after school part time job.
while many on this board would have you believe that doing this program or others like it will cause you to forever wear a scarlet 'PFT' on your polyster garb and run through the airport hiding your face because you're embarassed and maligned by how you got there.....it just ain't true.

I work at a busy flight school right next to Alpine at PVU. One of our instructors did their program, got tons of actual time, tons of awesome experience, and was snatched up by a regional thanks to all the turbine time he had. After being a CFI, he calls the Alpine experience the best he's had and most valuable in preparing him for his 121 gig.

I looked into the program. The 1900 price tag comes with a type rating, and both programs offer 250 hours of PIC time. They used to have a letter from the FAA OKing the two pilot ops for the BE99, but they didnt' renew it, and now they give you 250 hours sole manipulator time, so you can log it all as PIC.

I will not be doing the program. I agree with others here that, in today's environment, it's not necessary and the 13-19K would be better spent elsewhere. Also, it takes about 7 months to complete, with most routes being in Montana.

If it seems 'iffy' to you, don't do it. Don't think, however, that the few on this board who seem to post everyday on almost every subject are a microcosm and representative of the airline industry-they ain't! Take all advice with a grain of salt, assess your career goals, and make a good decision.

I would definately think twice before spending that much money for the right seat of those airplanes. Why not get on with a 135 company and let them PAY for your ground school, training, and 135 SIC check ride as well as you being PAID to fly right seat.?
I was hired over 1.5 years ago having little multi time and NO turbine time at all and company paid for all training and flight checks. I believe that I was very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time BUT if YOU are persistant enough I am sure you can find a 135 operator willing to give you the "opportunity" to prove your skills. I could never imagine "paying" for the right seat or as some say "experience" for that kind of money. (food 4 thought)- I for one would not want to have to justify to a future employer on "how" and "why" I "bought" a right seat on any equipment-

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