ALPA's "problem"

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The problem with ALPA is that it fails to deal with the core causes of the decline in bargaining power. If we can address these issues, we can regain some bargaining power. If we continue to ignore these issues, the free market will continue..

What was wrong with the bargaining power of UAL2000 and DAL2001? Was it coincindental that the concessionary contracts happened after 9/11, high oil prices and over capacity? And funny too how all of those concessionary contracts were voted on by the membership....

So much for your decline in bargaining power....

What are you going to say when MEC's start getting it back when the airlines start showing profits in 2007? Maybe you'll call it a slower decline?


As far as the rest of your post.....................................................

except for #3

 

[~~~^~~~]

What was wrong with the bargaining power of UAL2000 and DAL2001?

You mean DAL 2000, but none the less, what was wrong with it was that ALPA did not allow all members who's wages and working conditions were being negotiated with their employer the opportunity to participate in and ratify those negotiations. Those Harvard management consultants knew how to outsource, ALPA did not know how to deal with it and saw it as a way to sell scope for pre-deregulation pay. (OOOps, is an understatement)

ASA pilots tried to get binding scope with Delta during that process and again when ASA, Comair and Delta all three were in negotiations with Delta Management. ALPA refused to allow ASA, or Comair pilots, to negotiate inclusive scope. Brand scope was (and is) a good idea, but DOA as a result of a few NWA and Delta members who saw it as a turf battle.

This not only lead directly to the current crisis at ASA, argueably it resulted in the Compass and Delta pay rates which are less than ASA's current book. After the Delta buys sold their scope, they now have to be competitive. Since pay rates generally build from the bottom up and since this is where the fleet growth action is going to be in the future, ALPA's failure to manage scope at the "regional" level has resulted in a real problem for our profession that we will have to work on fixing for years to come.

ALPA's problem is that it has not treated its membership equally. Some members get more representation than others. It harms all of us, some more than others, but the net result is a diminishing profession when we do not stand together.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The problem with ALPA is that it fails to deal with the core causes of the decline in bargaining power. If we can address these issues, we can regain some bargaining power. If we continue to ignore these issues, the free market will continue..

1. The top pay at a regional, and most of the pay at a mainline puts you in the top 10% of W2 earners. Combine that with the ability to have a 3 day work week and it isn't really that bad of a job. That is a lot to give up if you choose to "draw a line in the sand" and it causes you to have to start over again at the bottom somewhere else. This causes at least 50% of any pilot group to do whatever it takes to save the company even if it lowers the bar.

Joe where the heck do you come up with these numbers? 50%? Why not 40%? 60%? 25%? Are you making this stuff up or are you inebriated?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe where the heck do you come up with these numbers? 50%? Why not 40%? 60%? 25%? Are you making this stuff up or are you inebriated?

I said AT LEAST 50% because that is what it takes to ratify. In reality, they usually pass by a 60% margin. The point is, when it comes down to the bitter end, the majority of each pilot group votes to live another day. The alternative of starting over at the bottom on another seniority list in another city for 20-30 thousand is worse than accepting the concessions. The ability to make lateral moves like EVERY OTHER PROFESSION would curb this behavior and help people draw that mythical line in the sand everyone talks about.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I said AT LEAST 50% because that is what it takes to ratify. In reality, they usually pass by a 60% margin. The point is, when it comes down to the bitter end, the majority of each pilot group votes to live another day. The alternative of starting over at the bottom on another seniority list in another city for 20-30 thousand is worse than accepting the concessions. The ability to make lateral moves like EVERY OTHER PROFESSION would curb this behavior and help people draw that mythical line in the sand everyone talks about.

Well actually, it's 50%+1 if you want to get technical.

And since we're pulling numbers out of thin air, I'll bet WAY more than 50% of our pilots will pursue careers outside of flying should ASA fold. I know I will. Can you? Can Lynn?

Let's here the truth. What has management promised you two in exchange for this coup attempt? You know darn well this contract can't be settled in 90 days without caving. Management won't deal with our union... or will they, as long as it's someone they can control? And the promises you made in her campaign letter... 5 of them are already TA'd by the current MEC!

So let's get it in the open. What are you two trying to pull? You have ZERO credibility with this pilot group. Hell, you wouldn't even do the LEC Sec/Trez job. Tell us why we should vote for you again... because we all know a vote for the coalition is a vote for you. Lynn would never leave you out.

 

[~~~^~~~]

John:

The thought is that management has already agreed to 80% of their agenda. The other 20% would be a trade of B fund retirement and industry leading 70-90 rates in exchange for scope.

I'm not sure how the IP pay fits into the equation, but we have a very good training department which is being wasted with the current deflation of our ranks. Perhaps some stability would help justify the IP pay at present book. After all it takes the company 2 years or more to create an APD and our IP's would be the first guys to get hired elsewhere if they decided to leave. We should consider that 60 senior guys coming out of the training department would not be good for our quality of life - so if they are happy with current book, I am more than happy that they keep getting it.

I am pleased with the progress our MEC Chairman, John Rice and his crew have accomplished thus far. After all, the first SkyWest proposal was very unrealistic. I am undecided who I want as the Captains' Reps, but I am all for getting these folks on the ballot (which they will be on anyway) since I enjoy a spirited debate and the democratic process in action.

 

[Bizjet]

John:

The thought is that management has already agreed to 80% of their agenda. The other 20% would be a trade of B fund retirement and industry leading 70-90 rates in exchange for scope.

I'm not sure how the IP pay fits into the equation, but we have a very good training department which is being wasted with the current deflation of our ranks. Perhaps some stability would help justify the IP pay at present book. After all it takes the company 2 years or more to create an APD and our IP's would be the first guys to get hired elsewhere if they decided to leave. We should consider that 60 senior guys coming out of the training department would not be good for our quality of life - so if they are happy with current book, I am more than happy that they keep getting it.

I am pleased with the progress our MEC Chairman, John Rice and his crew have accomplished thus far. After all, the first SkyWest proposal was very unrealistic. I am undecided who I want as the Captains' Reps, but I am all for getting these folks on the ballot (which they will be on anyway) since I enjoy a spirited debate and the democratic process in action.

Do you want the Fab 4 on the ballot knowing that LJ will be one of those individuals? Why would you support her in any position within the union? She and BoyToy have already made promises to management to give away our contract! Is that along with her personal jumping from the Union to management and back two times not enough to tell her SORRY, NO SUPPORT FROM ME but lets go have a keg. Just because they are your drinking buddies doesn't make them suitable for the job!!!